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Cash Back at Terribles?
Posted by ace on 16-Dec-2002 16:14:40 (#1796)
I emailed them for more info but hadnt heard back yet. Supposedly they have a 5-10% cash back program on table game losses at $25/hand and higher. Anyone know if this is a decent deal and whether or not their games make it worth the trip?
BTW, where is this place ?
Re: Cash Back at Terribles?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 16-Dec-2002 18:12:59 (#1801)
If the game is playable, ie good pene etc, then the 5% or 10% cash back will end up really helping you out in the long run. Example: we lose 47 x 100 = 4700 and win 53 x 100 = 5300 and would normally walk with $600. With the 10% cash back we will walk with an extra $470, or $1070. $235 for 5%.
That's not how it works...
Posted by zengrifter on 16-Dec-2002 18:18:47 (#1802)
...anybody got the rules on this?
Terrible Address & Phone #
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 16-Dec-2002 18:38:20 (#1804)
Address
4100 Paradise Road
Las Vegas, Nevada 89156
United States
Telephones
(702) 691-2423 FAX
(702) 733-7000 General Information
(702) 733-7000 Hotel Reservations
(800) 640-9777 Toll Free
(800) 640-9777 Toll Free Hotel Reservations
Blackjack- 6 tables
===========
Address
5870 Homestead Road
Pahrump, Nevada 89048
United States
Telephones
(775) 751-8409 FAX
(775) 751-7770 General Information
(888) 558-5253 Toll Free Hotel Reservations
Blackjack- 3 tables
=================
Address
771 South Frontage Road
Pahrump, Nevada 89048-4721
United States
Telephones
(775) 751-7720 FAX
(775) 751-7777 General Information
(888) 837-7425 Toll Free Hotel Reservations
(888) TERRIBLE Toll Free Hotel Reservations
Heres the info if interested
Posted by ace on 17-Dec-2002 22:18:18 (#1858)
(from the lvrj)
Anyone losing more than $500 in 24-hour period at Terrible's blackjack, roulette or craps (with an average bet of $25 per hand) is eligible for up to a $25 rebate. Players losing $1,000 are eligible for up to a $100 cash rebate. Please note the word eligible. In other words, this is not automatic, but at the discretion of pit management. For example, one of the rules does stipulate that a player using "advantage tactics" (i.e. card counting) will be disqualified.
Take a Pass
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 17-Dec-2002 22:45:04 (#1861)
If they are that sure they can figure that you are an advantage player, take a pass. They will be hitting up the VP players like they are at Greektown Detroit. Most of these Terrible's are sawdust joints from what I can see (3 BJ tables) Be a sonovabeech if you went in, lost 1K and they crawdad out on ya. If they can't tell you are counting, this would be an awesome way to take the cut out of the swing as I first mentioned above. Do you feel like testing the waters with your little toe or something? ;> Your call now.
Re: Take a Pass NOT
Posted by zengrifter on 17-Dec-2002 23:38:40 (#1865)
Most of these Terrible's are sawdust joints from what I can see (3 BJ tables) Be a sonovabeech if you went in, lost 1K and they crawdad out on ya.
-------------------
The Terrible's Vegas crew are NOT that savvy - I stayed and played solid for 2weeks before they pulled me up - they offered one of the best 2D games in town. Terrible's Town Parump has a 1D 75% pene and a 2D 85% pene that are killer and they are CLUELESS. I'd play either joint whether they offered a rebate or not. zg
Open Seaon on Terribles!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 18-Dec-2002 05:58:46 (#1868)
There you have it. If the place is so clueless this is the opportunity of a life time at that particular Terribles. See my original post in this thread for details.
Re: Open Seaon on Terribles!
Posted by zengrifter on 18-Dec-2002 10:03:02 (#1873)
Like I said, the rules don't allow for simple arbritray rebate at the LV location - they say 'up to' and 'no adv-play' meaning that the qualifying player will be subject to an additional analysis - even BS'ers will be denied full rebate, its for 'good players (casino defined) only. zg
Re: Open Season on Terribles!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 18-Dec-2002 10:54:46 (#1876)
So you are saying the games are good but don't expect any bonus if you are a counter? I'll bet a drunken monkey style blackjack master could come up with some awesome cover ploy. To be honest, I have never been interested in any cash back system online or off. First you have to lose, then you get a % back. Add to that you get a % back if they want to give it to you, and possibly never for BJ players. Have you ever droped a G or two there and asked for cash back?
Thanks so much Alienated . Question:
Posted by BjFool on 17-Dec-2002 12:08:04 (#1838)
Wonderful and comprehensive insight into EOR.
Can you tell me when playing a 6 deck game (S17, Double any to cards, up to 4 splits, DAS, fair penetration) involving Hi-Opt II system and using a side count ; which cards would be best suited for the side count and how many should I include to improve playing and betting strategy. I can't seem to find consensus on that in all my research.
(i don't mind the work and I'm playing with a partner so even if we can improve our play/betting strategy by as little as 1.0% it's worth the effort).
thanks in advance.
NOT ALIENATED, but
Posted by zengrifter on 17-Dec-2002 13:28:43 (#1840)
**My responses -
Can you tell me when playing a 6 deck game (S17, Double any to cards, up to 4 splits, DAS, fair penetration) involving Hi-Opt II system and using a side count ;
**It would be the Ace for betting (you know my position on that)
which cards would be best suited for the side count and how many should I include to improve playing and betting strategy.
**The 7s and 8s, perhaps as a single block, BUT - multiparams were never meant for shoes.
I can't seem to find consensus on that in all my research.
**Of course there is consensus on this -
http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/counting/gordon.htm
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=multiparameter+counts&sa=N&tab=wg
(i don't mind the work and I'm playing with a partner so even if we can improve our play/betting strategy by as little as 1.0% it's worth the effort).
**First, if you mean gaining a true 1% (ie, a 100% increase) it ain't gonna happen, and second, you and your partner will have a much higher combined +Ev IF you play seperate tables with a simple count. zg
Re: NOT ALIENATED, but
Posted by BjFool on 17-Dec-2002 16:47:07 (#1845)
Thanks zengrifter I appreciate your comments (as always) and the links you often provide to corroborate them.
I will read the articles carefully.
BjFool,
Agree with zg
Posted by alienated on 17-Dec-2002 18:56:34 (#1848)
Glad you enjoyed the earlier posts, BJFool. ZG is right. There is very little strategy gain from multiparameter systems in 6-deck shoes. I think Gwynn's simulation results confirm this, though I haven't seen his actual studies, only seen references to them. That's not to say that PE is unimportant in shoes. T-Hopper has done very interesting work on the benefits of high PE for overall risk-return performance measures (if you haven't already, you might like to check out his page and posts at BJ Review Net). He has also developed various multiparameter systems and is the real expert on this stuff.
As it happens, for single-deck I did write a very long (and boring ;-)) post which is archived at bj21.com in the counting section entitled "Selective Side Counting with HOII (Long)". This post uses Griffin's methods to approximate the gains from using various side counts with Hi Opt II. The side counts considered were (6), (7), (8), (9), (67), and (678). With flat betting, the (678) ranked highest, then (67), then (7), (8), (6), and (9). The flat-bet gains from sidecounting the (8) and (6) were very close, and I think studies have shown (again I've only seen references to these) that the (6) outperforms the (8) in simulations. I do know that slightly more of the (6) gains come from positive index plays, so bet-spread effects would bolster its results. The reason the (6) and (7) are relatively worthwhile to side count, even though they are included in the primary count, is that sometimes they act as big cards (so that the side-adjustment involves a correction not only of magnitude but of sign), and for important single-deck plays such as 14 v T, the tag of +1 is way too low. Incidentally, the reference in the post's title to 'selective' side counting simply referred to the idea of deciding what cards to side count once a round or two had already been dealt. If 6s seem to be coming out normally, but all 8s have appeared, or no 7s, you would focus on the 7s and 8s, but ignore the 6s, etc.
As I said, the above relates to single deck. There might be some worth to multiparameter systems in double-deck games too, but I haven't examined the issue.
With shoes, if you are absolutely determined to side count for non-betting purposes, no matter how small the gains, perhaps your friend could do the insurance count (unbalanced ten), and you could keep a simple 5-6 differential for 16 v T. These are the two most important plays, because they come up so often. Adding 2 times the 5-6 differential to Hi Opt II gives (0 1 1 2 4 -1 1 0 0 -2), which is very good for 16 v T. Again, though, this is more worthwhile in single-deck games.
Given your willingness to work hard in the shoe game, even for small gains, I hope you'll forgive this gratuitous piece of advice:
Why not work hard for BIG gains? ;-)
With lots of practice, techniques such as shuffle tracking and sequencing really are feasible. These methods open up a lot of possibilities. The edges can be very large, and the approaches applicable to many games.
Re: Agree with Ali
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 17-Dec-2002 20:46:34 (#1851)
Ali is right. The biggest gains in BJ are locating packets of cards and playing them. Some of the best teams in the world only use Hi Low and track. I can see where you are coming from BJF; you want to make sure that you are spending your time wisely, learning to be the best you can possibly be, and I admire that in any endeavour. When I team up for the single pass shuffle game I use Hi Opt II and the other players use Hi Low. We will often signal the count back and forth, some time even tell each other what it is, and their count is normally half of what mine is. Far better to know where the Aces are than to know they are just rich.
Re: Agree with zg
Posted by zengrifter on 17-Dec-2002 21:26:06 (#1852)
"...you and your partner will have a much higher combined +Ev IF you play seperate tables with a simple count"
----------
Yes, agree with your main point, too
Posted by alienated on 17-Dec-2002 22:05:25 (#1857)
Sorry, zg. I didn't mean to obscure your main point, which I agree with. Rare exceptions may be cases where team members need to be at the same table to carry out multiple functions; say, delegated tracking and sequencing duties (of which I do have firsthand experience), or spotting holecards and signaling to others (of which I do not have firsthand experience). Unskilled members can of course be useful for locking up tables, etc. I just wanted to give some information on the relative worth of different side counts for HOII, which was also part of BJFool's question, even though this pertains to single deck.
So to reiterate, I do agree that for two counters, playing separate tables is usually better than playing one.
One more thing...
Posted by alienated on 17-Dec-2002 22:50:42 (#1863)
There is an excellent post by ET Fan, archived as a past POM at bj21.com (early 2001 I think). The post studies the concept of 'tag team wonging' (mentioned in Grosjean's _Beyond Counting_, p.50). The approach involves backcounting separate tables. When both tables offer positive EV, each player plays their 'base' table. If only one table offers positive EV, both players converge on the same table, but the 'visitor' continues to count a nearby table, rather than the current table, ready to jump ship again. The concept is especially suited to when two (or more) players are not sharing bankrolls but would like to gain some of the benefits afforded by team approaches. ET Fan's post can only be accessed with Green Chip membership, but is well worth a read for those who have the opportunity.
No ads for...
Posted by zengrifter on 17-Dec-2002 23:32:33 (#1864)
... commercial pay sites please, BJ info wants to be free! zg
Re: Agree with zg REITERATE
Posted by zengrifter on 17-Dec-2002 21:48:56 (#1855)
"With shoes, if you are absolutely determined to side count for non-betting purposes, no matter how small the gains, perhaps your friend could do the insurance count (unbalanced ten), and you could keep a simple 5-6 differential for 16 v T. These are the two most important plays, because they come up so often. Adding 2 times the 5-6 differential to Hi Opt II gives (0 1 1 2 4 -1 1 0 0 -2), which is very good for 16 v T. Again, though, this is more worthwhile in single-deck games. "
-------------------------
'Ali' would agree that the above is NOT a worthwhile use of two-man resource - two counters using a simple KO or Red7 or HiLo with only a few i#s AT SEPERATE TABLES would have a much higher Ev. Work smart not hard. zg
Re: Agree with zg REITERATE- TED?
Posted by zengrifter on 19-Dec-2002 02:56:36 (#1886)
"With shoes, if you are absolutely determined to side count for non-betting purposes, no matter how small the gains, perhaps your friend could do the insurance count (unbalanced ten), and you could keep a simple 5-6 differential for 16 v T. These are the two most important plays, because they come up so often. Adding 2 times the 5-6 differential to Hi Opt II gives (0 1 1 2 4 -1 1 0 0 -2), which is very good for 16 v T. Again, though, this is more worthwhile in single-deck games. "
--------------------------
Re: Agree with zg REITERATE- TED?
Posted by alienated on 19-Dec-2002 07:32:41 (#1887)
No, I think you're clearly correct. Two jointly bankrolled HiLo20 players at different tables is definitely much better than separate counting duties at the same table. My comment that you quoted was meant more in the spirit of, "Well, if you're absolutely determined to play at the same table and divide the counting duties, you might have one of you keep a count for perfect insurance decisions." Even this won't help much, since insurance is already a strength of HOII (efficiency of about 90% for that decision), so the gains wouldn't be large.
Two players at the same table
Posted by T-Hopper on 19-Dec-2002 10:49:22 (#1897)
could effectively turn a face down game into a face up game. This is more valuable than most people realize, especially in single deck. See Blackbelt in Blackjack, FIRST edition.
Two players at the same STRONGER?
Posted by zengrifter on 20-Dec-2002 00:10:53 (#1933)
Two players at the same table could effectively turn a face down game into a face up game. This is more valuable than most people realize, especially in single deck.
------------------
Re: Two players at the same STRONGER?
Posted by T-Hopper on 20-Dec-2002 13:25:03 (#1944)
Probably not, but it might have a lower ROR. And what else can you do if there are 3-4 players at every single deck table?
Re: Two players at the same STRONGER?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 20-Dec-2002 15:30:59 (#1950)
That is the only reason last time out re the single pass shuffle we had to play not only the same table, but often only one SPOT at that table! We could sequence but often would net get the card at our spot, so had to track and bet heavy into the flood of Faces.
Re: Two players at the same STRONGER?
Posted by T-Hopper on 20-Dec-2002 15:36:51 (#1951)
I don't want to discuss shuffle tracking here, but you MUST get the cut card if you want to play a "repeater".
Re: Two players at the same STRONGER?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 20-Dec-2002 15:39:30 (#1953)
That part was easy! ;>
Dr Profe 's 1996 post on newsgroup *LINK*
Posted by BjFool on 17-Dec-2002 17:34:37 (#1847)
Does anyone (especially mathematiciens) care to comment on Dr. Profe's interesting claims about the game of BlackJack?
forgive my ignorance if that subject has already been dealt with in this community but I'm fairly new here and I just stumbled on Dr Profe's post while reading articles recommended by zengrifter.
awaiting light on subject,
BjFool,
thank you all
Re: Dr Profe 's 1996 post on newsgroup *LINK*
Posted by zengrifter on 17-Dec-2002 19:06:10 (#1849)
HA! The fact is that Prof S. is non other than 'Doug Grant' formerly the biggest pest to the BJ online community. Link below to the Doug Grant FAQ by Sam Case and Abdul Jalib. zg
Re: Dr Profe 's 1996 post on newsgroup
Posted by Learning to count on 17-Dec-2002 20:44:05 (#1850)
Interesting out look in the same article:
| As a psychologist (not currently practicing) I worry about the
| psychopathology often manifest in the group. I suppose it cannot be
| avoided in a public forum. I learned during my internship not to
| expect rationality from a crazy person. You might spare yourself
| some grief by not TRYING to reconcile Mr. Grant's beliefs and
| accusations with any rational scheme. Just say, "Nice doggie..." as
| you back out of the room. (John Clarkson)...
Kinda what we have to do here when the crazies come with thier tales of top secret progressions or that we are in cahoots with the casinos or that we are part of secret societies bent on ruling the black jack world. ZZZZZZZZZZZ
Re: Dr Profe 's 1996 post on newsgroup
Posted by zengrifter on 17-Dec-2002 21:32:30 (#1854)
>>Kinda what we have to do here when the crazies come with thier tales of top secret progressions <<
-------------------------
Well I for one STILL want to know how a 'McGarvey's Grind' progression works and when and why its progenitor advocates its use! zg
Re: Dr Profe 's 1996 post on newsgroup
Posted by Learning to count on 18-Dec-2002 06:21:09 (#1870)
Touchee...hahaha...oops sorry.... but he did admit he was wrong give him some credit. You know if you guys would just bury your past disagreements and try and accept each other as you are your lives would be more in harmony.
Your both master advantage players with the same objectives: to win and beat the vig. It is just that your approaches are different. "Cant we all just get along."
**My responses
Posted by zengrifter on 19-Dec-2002 20:14:12 (#1918)
but he did admit he was wrong give him some credit.
**Ok, but..."admit he was wrong?? I think he still endorses progressions for some special purposes - I wanna know what, as well as what MCGarvey's Grind actually is (even though NOBODY wanted to know at Bjmath).
You know if you guys would just bury your past disagreements and try and accept each other as you are your lives would be more in harmony.
**I'm game, harmony with the universe, feng shui of BJ intercourse, sure why not!
Your both master advantage players with the same objectives
**Master-player? ... Ok I wanna know about the 'MGrind'!
To win and beat the vig. It is just that your approaches are different.
**Without open discussion we cannot know how just how different!
Oh Merry Christmas and Happy Hanakah and PEACE :)
**Bah humbug! zg
Re: **My responses
Posted by Learning to count on 19-Dec-2002 20:47:46 (#1921)
Ha HA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ROTFLMAO...........ZG your too much:)
Workin My Game
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 19-Dec-2002 22:28:54 (#1926)
Busy working it right now....
http://webhome.idirect.com/~blakjack/814.jpg
I have three casinos open right now......grin Golden P, a download Micro and a flash Micro. I pound one for a bit, then switch windows and do the other. Keeps things from getting boring.
BORING
Don't be fooled by the rocks that I got
How High's The Water Mama?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 23-Dec-2002 20:41:52 (#1986)
Six feet high n risin'
http://webhome.idirect.com/~blakjack/835.jpg
Re: How High's The Water Mama?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 23-Dec-2002 20:51:00 (#1987)
http://webhome.idirect.com/~blakjack/847.jpg
It's all about percentages and probabilities.....
Re: How High's The Water Mama?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 27-Dec-2002 18:59:06 (#2080)
It's all about percentages and probabilities.....
http://webhome.idirect.com/~blakjack/882.jpg
self control and patience.....
Re: How High's The Water Mama?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 28-Dec-2002 22:26:25 (#2150)
http://webhome.idirect.com/~blakjack/900.jpg
Pathetic or getting really good?
Posted by ace on 17-Dec-2002 22:22:45 (#1859)
I'm laughing just thinking of this...
Girlfriend and I are watching one of those Travel Channel shows on Vegas that we enjoy every once in a while. 5 second camera pan of a shoe game being dealt to 6 players. Without even thinking in 2 seconds I blurt out, "PLUS THREE!"
"What?"
"Nothing, ah nothing. Want some more popcorn?"
I've done that more than once...
Posted by zengrifter on 17-Dec-2002 22:40:46 (#1860)
...as I anticipate the dealer's next card... "PLUS 3!" What? "Nothing, here's s toke, mum's the word." zg
Both
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 17-Dec-2002 22:50:29 (#1862)
I have taught my wife how to play and she knows the Hi Low but she can't get passed making bets bigger than her usual 25 cents on the slots! ;> She is so sweet. No indices yet.
Mine
Posted by V-man on 18-Dec-2002 19:54:21 (#1883)
My wife knows everything about Advantage BJ, RC, TC, Wonging, bankroll, Kelly, CE, all the terminology. And yet she refuses to play BJ. She loves slots, especially the late 5 cents machines.
Last trip to Vegas, I bought 2 sets of CP coupons. We played a few hands at Strat then when headed downtown at the Plaza (CP has 4 $25 matchplay at Plaza), she refused to play the coupons, she said she felt sorry for the casino since that day when we were there (wednesday afternoon), the place was very light, not many gamblers. I ended up throwing her coupons away :)
Re: Mine
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 19-Dec-2002 08:51:08 (#1890)
What a shame! ;> Last times I was in LV prior to getting married I had my lady friends give me their fun book coupies since they were slot players. My wife is a slot player as well, sticking to quarter slots and playing single coin in. She understands some of the terms, but really is not interested in bj so much as the checks that come in the mail every week.
I think everyone has their own talents and it helps if you have a second party to help you spot them. I find plenty of people are missing the mark and concentrating on the wrong things in their life and end up saping their true potential. I'm trying to point my wife in the eBay direction where she can make +200% profits selling unique items that we find at real auctions. A real auction can only reach so many interested parties. eBay can reach the entire world.
foxwoods gaming
Posted by dude on 18-Dec-2002 03:18:36 (#1867)
Hi, I have mastered basic strategy and am getting good at keeping a hi-lo count (can count down a deck in about 30 seconds, sometimes less). I need some advice on how to implement my count at Foxwoods. It has 8D, DAS, DA2, LS, S17, which gives house odds of about 0.36%, I believe. The penetration is usually around 2 decks (that is 75 percent, right? Isn't that decent?)
What betting and playing strategies should I learn? Anyone have experience at Foxwoods? Pit bosses: give heat, are oblivious, or somewhere in between? Thanks for any thoughts and comments!
Re: foxwoods gaming
Posted by Learning to count on 18-Dec-2002 07:58:59 (#1871)
"Hi, I have mastered basic strategy"
And you know it without thinking. I mean you can recite it like your favorite song while driving. When playing the decision is a reaction not a thought.
"and am getting good at keeping a hi-lo count"
Can you convert to the true count; can you estimate the amount of decks left in the shoe; do you know any strategy diversion indices; do you know how much to bet per your bankroll; and per the count.
"can count down a deck in about 30 seconds, sometimes less)."
Can you count one card at a time; then two cards at a time; then three cards at a time; the pros say you must count down a deck in less than 25-22 seconds; I count 75 decks a night;
I count down one deck, one card at a time, twenty five times, average time is 12 secs. My best is 10 secs.
I count down one deck, twenty five times, two cards at a time, average time 13 secs. My best is 11 secs.
I count down one deck, Twenty five times, three cards at a time, average time is 11 secs, best time 9 secs.
This gives you card recognition. A tool that will develop into table scanning.
"I need some advice on how to implement my count at Foxwoods. It has 8D, DAS, DA2, LS, S17, which gives house odds of about 0.36%, I believe."
You should Wong at the least. If you do sit and play start at the beggining of a shoe and walk when the TC goes -1. Per the Mayor Two hands at a +two TC.(this may be different with Late Surrender). I love surrender it has cut edge of of losing big bets! Other wise your bet strategy is the same as you would bet normally according to your bankroll constraints and your risk strategy. Late surrender is great! S17 is good too. Surrendar 16 at 9,10,A. Unless you know the indices for surrendar (blackjack attack 2 Don schlesinger's Illustriuos 18 and the fab four.) Surrender is excellent when you have a high TC and a big bet out and you get a stiff.
"The penetration is usually around 2 decks (that is 75 percent, right? Isn't that decent?)"
Two decks cut off Sucks. Wong WOng WONg WONG! I know it is a madhouse there! Save your funds and go to vegas for a long weekend. The 5 hour flight sux but its worth it.
"What betting and playing strategies should I learn?"
READ READ READ: Blackjack secrets, Stanford Wong; Beyond Counting, Jean Grosjean; Million Dollar Blackjack, Ken Uston; If you are mathmaticaly knowledgeable BJ ATTACK TWO, Don Schlesinger. There is a lot more and a great list is on the left of your screen at the bottom.
" Anyone have experience at Foxwoods? Pit bosses: give heat, are oblivious, or somewhere in between? Thanks for any thoughts and comments!"
I have never been there but the information I have been given by other counters,CBJN/BJ21.com, Trackjack/Nachts AP.COM, this site, etc. is that it is crowded, huge, and sweaty.
Learning how to do this thing is tedious but it can be done. The tools you need to impliment card counting are easy to learn but you have to practice. Dont fret at my post please. You can do this. You need to focus and you need discipline.
I remember when I started learning how to fight. I was at the dojo for three months and a green belt who was the class jerk always picked on me. So I decided to spar him. Well he kicked my butt. Afterwards I practiced practiced practiced. He went to college. When he returned he thought he was still the king. He challenged me in front of the whole school including all the Sensei. I knocked him out first round. I was disciplined for not using controll.
I won because I trained my ass off. I had focus and to use a common fad term I had ZEN. I was big headed after that. Later the sensei had me fight a girl who was two years younger and a brown belt. Whew my jaw still hurts. I'm still learning, to play Blackjack too! LTC
Principles of Natural Law
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 18-Dec-2002 09:22:54 (#1872)
A very well written post. The discipline you picked up by using your body to teach the inner you is showing ;> These principles are like keys that fit into every lock you may encounter. RC, TC, penetration, rules, bankroll, spread, wonging, all are keys.
You are also a fast counter, but that is because you are constantly practicing. A green belt or a green chipper that slacks off will begin to slow down.
He will need to be fast if he ever gets to go head to head in Vegas.
Good cards to you at Foxy!
Re: foxwoods gaming
Posted by BradRod on 18-Dec-2002 19:09:00 (#1882)
......................You should Wong at the least. If you do sit and play start at the beggining of a shoe and walk when the TC goes -1. Per the Mayor Two hands at a +two TC.(this may be
different with Late Surrender). ....................
what do you mean by "Two hands at a +two TC.(this may be
different with Late Surrender). ...................." ? i mean if the count is +two TC don't you want to just keep playing ?
"The penetration is usually around 2 decks (that is 75 percent, right? Isn't that decent?)"
Two decks cut off Sucks. Wong WOng WONg WONG! I know it is a madhouse there! Save your funds and go to vegas for a long weekend. The 5 hour flight sux but its
worth it.
Is Vegas really the best place to play ? is that because of penetration ? or is it the availabilty of single deck games ? or is it less of a madhouse ? is it a total waste of time playing local shoe games ?
Re: foxwoods gaming
Posted by Learning to count on 18-Dec-2002 21:06:56 (#1884)
{Sorry if Iwas rushed. LTC}
......................You should Wong at the least. If you do sit and play start at the beggining of a shoe and walk when the TC goes -1. Per the Mayor Two hands at a +two TC.(this may be
different with Late Surrender). ....................
what do you mean by "Two hands at a +two TC.(this may be
{If the TC is Plus two play two hands. Because of late surrender you may be able to risk more money at a lower positive True count. I was hoping the mayor would comment.}
different with Late Surrender). ...................." ? i mean if the count is +two TC don't you want to just keep playing ?
{yes keep playing if the deck remains positive. This is due to the dealer busting more and you being able to get more Blackjacks. Leave when the TRUE COUNT minus one.}
"The penetration is usually around 2 decks (that is 75 percent, right? Isn't that decent?)"
{No it is not good. 80% is a better starting point. A lot of six deckers in LV have better than 85% cut off. I cant give you the math because I am math ignorant but I have seen and had the percentages explained to me. 75% is not good.}
Two decks cut off Sucks. Wong WOng WONg WONG! I know it is a madhouse there! Save your funds and go to vegas for a long weekend. The 5 hour flight sux but its worth it.
Is Vegas really the best place to play ? is that because of penetration ? or is it the availabilty of single deck games ? or is it less of a madhouse ? is it a total waste of time playing local shoe games ?
{Vegas is the Blackjack mecca: The gulf coast casinos are a close second.} If you play bad games you will get bad results. Iplayed terrible games for months because I was ignorant. The Mayor's one comment that sticks in my mind is that he will not play a bad game period! If you have to play a bad game WONG And low stakes. I know sometimes you just have to play. I have to get sea sick once in a while to get some action on those dam casino boats.} OH yeah I am still learning so what ever I say is not a reason to go bet your mortgage payment.
Get Your Game Down, then.......
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 19-Dec-2002 09:13:03 (#1891)
I see you posted a similar question at another board, and would like to post a similar response here that is true Foxy style shoulder to shoulder bj play.
This also makes for some awesome plays. You can pick up a few % points by splitting and doubling with a ploppy that doesn't know when to split or double and get a good edge from their lack of playing knowledge.
Check my spread sheet for the best plays to look out for:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/blackjackcardcounterscafe/files/other%20players%20hands.xls
cutnpaste all or go to the site and click the link.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/blackjackcardcounterscafe/files/
Re: Get Your Game Down, then.......
Posted by BradRod on 19-Dec-2002 11:52:28 (#1899)
I am leary about sharing money at the table. i recently observred this at a table i was playing at.
player A with a black bet down, gets a double down play. hesitates ... player B says " hey bro. double down .... passes him the chips to do it. (they do not otherwise seem to know each other , other than sitting at the same table). player A gets the good hit, makes the hand....gets paid,,, gives player A his hundred back, only.
a few deals later same exact scenario... player B offers the double down, player A gets a poor hit,,,,, loses the hand, no payoff, says to player B "sorry bro "
i wanted to say something but, thought better of it since it did not affect me and said nothing.
i just would not trust the other player.
the other consideration is that the other player may intentionally not want to double down so that they can draw a second card if they wanted to
Re: Get Your Game Down, then.......
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 19-Dec-2002 16:54:07 (#1913)
I have also seen similar things like this happening. A split 9,9 v 6 up. A gets a win and B doesn't. A takes the win and B gets nothing. You have to be sure the person understands what you are doing. I make sure they understand "split the win or the loss" up front. If you are a thief you can also turn the whole thing around and scam the guys checks the same way. Not my bag but know this happens. It's fun to watch security come up and cuff a guy for stealing player's chips. It lets you know that the eye in the sky is actually doing its job properly. It also lets you know that they are watching you probably just as carefully.
Steve Jacobs 2 Deck Hole Card Exposed Strategy
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 18-Dec-2002 11:06:09 (#1877)
From: jacobs@xmission.com (jacobs@xmission.com)
Subject: Re: hole card exposed strategy
mhall@netcom.com (Abdul Jalib M'hall) writes:
>
> Stupid question:
>
> What is basic strategy for hole card exposed blackjack? I have
> an old post by Steve Jacobs, and it says to stand on 10-10 versus
> dealer hard 16. That can't be right, can it?
No, it isn't right. I've repaired some bugs in the face-up code of my
program, since that post was made.
> The dealer has
> roughly a 8/13 chance of busting here (on a shoe anyway.)
> If I get to pick the game, then say double deck, S17, DOA, DAS,
> split up to 4 hands, and late surrender. I'm not talking about
> double exposure blackjack.
See below, as per the rules you give here.
> Also, if you have the count adjustments for hole card exposed blackjack,
> I'd like to take a look to get some intuition for how much to deviate
> from basic strategy based on the count.
Count adjustments? Sorry, can't help you there.
Player has a 12% edge if you can get away with playing this strategy,
but it will really look suspicious to surrender hard 19. About 1.4%
of this 12% edge comes from surrender.
Caveat: I believe this strategy is correct, but there may still be
some bugs in my face-up code. If you see other cases here that don't
look right, let me know.
Face-up 21 Strategy Table
(normal 2-deck blackjack, dealer reveals hole card)
<soft dealer hands><--------------- hard dealer hands ----------------->
---+-------------------------------------------------------------------------
AA A2 A3 A4 A5 A6 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
---+-------------------------------------------------------------------------
XX | S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S PS PS PS S S S S s
99 | s s s PS PS S PS PS PS S PS ps s s PS PS PS PS PS S PS pq qh s
88 | ps ps ps ps Ps Ph Ps Ps Ps Ph ph pq qs qs Ps PS PS PS PS Ph ph qh qh s
77 | h ps ps ps ps Ph Ps Ps Ps ph ph h qh qs Ps PS PS PS PS Ph h h qh s
66 | h h h ph ph Ph Ps Ps Ps h h h h h Ps PS PS PS PS Ph h h qh s
55 | DH DH DH DH DH H DH DH DH DH DH DH h h DH DP DP DP DP H H H h s
44 | h h h h H H H PH PD H h h h h PD PD PD PD PD H h h qh s
33 | h h h h ph Ph Ph Ph PH ph ph h h h PH PH PD PD PD Ph ph h qh s
22 | h h h h ph PH Ph PH PH Ph ph h h h PH PH PH PD PD PH ph h qh s
AA | Ph Ph PH PH PH PH PH PD PD PH PH PH Ph ph PD PD PD PD PD H H h h s
---+-------------------------------------------------------------------------
AX | S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
A9 | S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S DS DS DS DS S S S S s
A8 | S S S S S S S S DS S S S s s DS DS DS DS DS S S S qh s
A7 | s s S S DS S DS DS DS S S h h s DS DS DS DS DS S H h h s
A6 | h h h h DH H DH DH DH H h h h h DH DH DH DH DH H h h h s
A5 | h h h h h H DH DH DH h h h h h DH DH DH DH DH H H h h s
A4 | h h h h H H DH DH DH H h h h h DH DH DH DH DH H H h h s
A3 | h h h h H H DH DH DH H H h h h DH DH DH DH DH H H h h s
A2 | h h h H H H H DH DH H H h h h DH DH DH DH DH H H h h s
AA | h h H H H H H DH DH H H H h h DH DH DH DH DH H H h h s
---+-------------------------------------------------------------------------
21 | S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
20 | S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S s
19 | S S S S S S S S S S S S s s S S S S S S S S qh s
18 | s s s S S S S S S S S s s s S S S S S S S qh qh s
17 | s s s s s S s s S s s s s s S S S S S S h qh qh s
16 | qs s s s s h s s s h h qh qh qs s S S S S h h qh qh s
15 | h s s s s h s s s h h h qh qs s S S S S h h qh qh s
14 | h h s s s h s s s h h h qh qh s S S S S h h h qh s
13 | h h h h s h s s s h h h h qh s S S S S h h h qh s
12 | h h h h h h s s s h h h h h s S S S S h h h qh s
11 | DH DH DH DH DH H DH DH DH DH DH DH DH h DH DH DH DH DH H H H h s
10 | DH DH DH DH DH H DH DH DH DH DH DH h h DH DH DH DH DH H H H h s
9 | h h H H DH H DH DH DH H H h h h DH DH DH DH DH H H h qh s
8 | h h h h h H H H DH H h h h h DH DH DH DH DH H h h qh s
7 | h h h h h H h H H h h h h h H DH DH DH DH H h h qh s
6 | h h h h h h h h H h h h h h H H DH DH DH h h h qh s
5 | h h h h h H h H H h h h h h H H DH DH DH H h h qh s
4 | h h h h h H h H H h h h h h H H H DH DH H h h qh s
---+-------------------------------------------------------------------------
S=stand H=hit D=double P=split Q=surrender
NOTES:
1) If more than one option is listed,
options to the left are preferred
over options to the right. Options
less favorable than STAND or HIT are
not shown.
2) Use the "Hard Hands" table only
when the other tables do not apply.
3) If splitting Aces is not allowed,
use the "Soft Hands" table.
4) Uppercase options favor the player,
lowercase options favor the house.
To The Mayor
Posted by SammyBoy on 18-Dec-2002 16:12:07 (#1878)
Would you mind telling us the length of time the graph on your BJ Journal covers? Just curious.
Re: To The Mayor
Posted by The Mayor on 21-Dec-2002 20:16:08 (#1972)
2001-2002. A total of 89 days playing BJ.
Zg...
Posted by MLB Scout on 18-Dec-2002 16:15:58 (#1879)
I sent you an email 3 weeks ago, but havent heard back from you. It's possible that I used the wrong address. I replied to a message you sent me awhile back. If you have changed your personal email address please email it to me.
Arigato
MLB
Mlb...
Posted by zengrifter on 18-Dec-2002 22:31:47 (#1885)
Hi, no nothing recent, BUT, yesterday I emailed YOU our latest newsletter and it was returned! email be at embassyone@netzero.net and I will reply forthwith! zg
Coupons
Posted by Cyrano on 19-Dec-2002 07:45:19 (#1888)
There's been some talk recently of coupons. I was flipping through the 2003 Guide to Casinoes and found some coupons in the back. Check it out.
Re: Coupons DESCRIBE THEM *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 19-Dec-2002 10:06:34 (#1894)
Re: Coupons DESCRIBE THEM
Posted by Cyrano on 19-Dec-2002 10:36:52 (#1895)
I was going to watch Lord of the Rings, so I didn't have much time to pay attention. The coupons were grouped by regions, but I noticed there were many of the same kinds you'd find in coupon books--match plays, rides, food, and rooms. Go into any decently-sized bookstore and flip to the end of the 2003 Casino guide. The coupons have an expiration date of Dec 2003.
"Fab 4" BJ Board Brings New Life to BJ Math.com
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 19-Dec-2002 09:44:11 (#1892)
Open a window into the dungeon of BJMath and look what happens! Their board is getting a lot of action now, which may or may not be my fault.
http://webhome.idirect.com/~blakjack/bjboards.htm
Some of the questions we may ask will not get a real math-type response, possibly because it would take a sim of gigantic proportions, but you will always get some of the world's best "educated guess's."
The thing I like most about the Fab4BJB is that I only need one bookmark in my IExplorer to get where I want to go. I am also working on a new 2003 logo for Blackjack Professional to replace the 2002 graphic. That will go up for Jan 1 2K3.
How many of the recent posters there...
Posted by zengrifter on 19-Dec-2002 10:05:43 (#1893)
... do you really beleive went thru your board? (REALLY?) zg(spam alert)
Re: How many of the recent posters there...
Posted by BradRod on 19-Dec-2002 11:39:20 (#1898)
is i fair to ask what this apparent rivalry is about ? are there other forums worth looking at ?
I have really enjoyed the support and information i get from everyone in here. i feel a real sense of community and it has kept me from feeling like a pathological gambler, especially during recent negative experiences.
thanks all
Brad
Re: How many of the recent posters there...
Posted by zengrifter on 19-Dec-2002 14:01:38 (#1908)
CC.com is ALL the board you need - forget bjmath, cccafe, and ESPECIALLY the commercial sites like bj21, rge21, idirectbj, etc. zg
zg, is that tongue in cheek?
Posted by alienated on 19-Dec-2002 16:32:46 (#1911)
I can't quite tell. ;-)
BradRod, I think you should at least check out all the free boards, including the associated archives. No doubt you'll find that you have your favourites, but there is a lot of worthwhile material at all the main BJ sites. Both bjmath and cccafe have a lot of good info in the archives (zg himself built up a lot of the valuable resources at cccafe.) There's also a lot of excellent old threads at rec.gambling, from before all the problems there.
For reasons of personality, familiarity, preference, or even occasionally downright hostility, some of us choose to confine our posts mainly to a few (or one) of the various sites. But personality differences aside, there are highly knowledgeable regular contributors on all the main boards. It would seem a pity to cut yourself off from a lot of the great info out there.
THANK YOU
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 19-Dec-2002 16:49:33 (#1912)
I was going to respond stating the points of your post but know better. ;>
Yes, tongue-in-cheek...
Posted by zengrifter on 19-Dec-2002 17:44:47 (#1914)
... except for some of the commercial sites named. another board that IS worth checking out is BJFlamewars. zg
Re: How many of the recent posters there...
Posted by Learning to count on 19-Dec-2002 20:28:07 (#1919)
BR has a point. Are we not like a family here. Mayor is dad, ZG and McGarvey are sibling rivalries, Every one else is brothers, sisters, cousins, uncles, grandparents, etc. I'm the mexican lawn man! Feliz Navidades y feliz ano nuevo. : )
Indices
Posted by Count Luckula on 19-Dec-2002 12:24:53 (#1901)
I recently ran a simulation for 8D DOA DAS 82%pen using Hi-Lo. I set the risk aversion ratio to 1. My question is, how should I use this risk aversion ration. The literature I have is hard to understand and I am wondering if this ratio is affecting my results. For example, for A4 vs. 4 I am getting an index of +2 and basic strategy says to always double. Basic strategy doesn't take into accouunt that you have more money on the table at higher counts, so why would BS tell you to double always? Other interesting ones are A7 vs A, A2 vs 5, and insurance.
RA Indices
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 19-Dec-2002 12:56:09 (#1902)
You are seeing what I was recently talking about when I asked about RA for onLine BJ. If you set the RA to 2 instead of 1 your + numbers will go up a bit further. Being RA with these plays can also be construed as cover as you will not be playing standard BS rules. People will often tell you not to double your bet after a loss ($16-$32) to try and win $2. The same can hold true with risk aversion. With a RA value of 1 the program tells you to skip the double $? x 2 for the expected .03% gain (.59 to .62) for A,4 v 4
Re: Indices
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 19-Dec-2002 13:03:06 (#1903)
I don't know what software you are using, or what this risk aversion ratio setting actually does.
However, the numbers you are giving seems perfectly reasonable. (you forgot to specify H17/S17, which is important.)
A,4 vs 4 and A,2 vs 5 are very marginal plays. You might as well flip a coin. Basic strategy says double because when you do it a million times you come out slightly ahead versus just hitting. Using the count, you avoid the variance of putting up twice as much money doubling on marginal plays, but when the count is high and you are more likely to win, (and as you point out, you have the larger bets out) then for sure you double on these.
FYI - I use 0 as my index for A,4 vs 4 on the games I play. I only double when the count is positive. A,2 vs 5 I use -1. If the count is negative, I just hit and eat a few more small cards.
A,7 vs A - are you seeing a +1 or something like that? These means you should stand, not hit. A few extra 10s in the deck make this play a stand. I think the count would have to be so high that it is only in theory that you would ever double on it. I think the theory behind this play is that it takes two 10 cards for the dealer to bust a Ace up hand. One 10 to turn his soft hand into a stiff, and another 10 to bust his stiff. So don't waste a 10 card turning your soft 18 into a hard 18 in a high count. In a low count, the dealer is less likely to bust, and you are more likely to catch some small cards and improve your 18.
Insurance? What do you find interesting about that? Actually I prefer to call it, "Does the Dealer have a Ten Card in the hole?" The count for this play is +3. However, this is the break even point. Meaning at +3, placing the "Does the Dealer have a Ten Card in the hole" bet is just like flipping a coin. I don't like to depend on paying my rent based on the luck of a coin flip. So I only bet the "Does the Dealer have a Ten Card in the hole" bet when I have a count that is slightly higher than +3.
Reducing Risk is all about reducing variance. If things always happen the way they are supposed too (zero variance) then you will always win. One way of reducing variance is to avoid coin flips. Why let the variance of a bunch of small bets, making small marginal plays, gone wrong creep into eating the profits of what is happening with the big bet sure things (hopefully, they are sure things, sometimes you get hammered on those too. LOL).
Re: Indices
Posted by Count Luckula on 19-Dec-2002 13:24:24 (#1905)
I am using SBA and the game is S17. I understood that the table was saying that you are suppose to stand on A7 vs A at TC's higher than +1, I had just never seen this index until running my own sim. As far as insurance, you were right on the button, the sim gave me a result of +4 (where the Mayor's index for multideck is +3). Does making these plays really seem like cover, or do the "eyes in the sky" recognize these types of moves and can tell you are well educated in the game.
Cover
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 19-Dec-2002 13:44:14 (#1906)
Since the average ploppie stands on soft 18, no matter what, standing on soft 18 vs A @ +1 is probably a good thing. The reason you have never seen it before is because it is a low frequency play. A,7 vs A. You have to have two aces in play at the same time.
Ploppy - stands on soft 18
Player who knows a little something - hits soft 18 vs 9,T,A
Counter - hits soft 18 vs 9,T sometimes stands on A
Ian Anderson - using his ultimate gambit, stands on soft 18 while asking for a comp
ZenGrifter - using his power of hypnotism, convinces dealer his 18 is actually a blackjack and collects 3:2 payoff.
As far as insurance goes, the less you take it the better the cover, since everybody knows insurance is a bad bet and never takes it.
This is a two-edged sword, however. By taking insurance at lower counts, or even in negative counts with a really small bet, the pit will see you sometimes LOSING an insurance bet. By taking insurance less frequently, and always winning, you are waving an even bigger counter flag.
Ultimate Gambit
Posted by T-Hopper on 19-Dec-2002 13:57:59 (#1907)
> Ian Anderson - using his ultimate gambit, stands on soft 18 while asking for a comp
Only do this in a stand on soft 17 game. This will cost far more than it is worth for cover if the dealer hits soft 17.
Re: Ultimate Gambit
Posted by zengrifter on 19-Dec-2002 14:03:01 (#1909)
hit v 9 stand v 10 would be a H17 gambit trade-off. zg
cheap software to generate indices
Posted by Blackjack majored on 19-Dec-2002 19:11:01 (#1915)
Help! Are there any cheap software out there that would generate indices for any counting system? Thanks
Re: cheap software to generate indices
Posted by koko on 19-Dec-2002 19:27:59 (#1917)
bj-stat from bjmath.com . Its free
FREE software to generate indices
Posted by zengrifter on 19-Dec-2002 23:47:18 (#1929)
The BJ Strat index generator requires a little DOS familiarity -
http://www.bjmath.com/bjcomputer/computer/programs/bjstrat.zip
The Jensen index generator uses an Excel Spread-sheeted algebra
http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/tcindex/Generator.zip
Re: FREE software to generate indices
Posted by Sonny on 20-Dec-2002 11:25:28 (#1940)
I had problems with the Jensen generator. Some of the cells were password-protected so I couldn't edit the number of decks or rules. Other than that, I LOVE the fact that it gives you all the multi-parameter adjustments too!
-Sonny-
Re: FREE software to generate indices
Posted by zengrifter on 20-Dec-2002 15:05:22 (#1947)
the #decks need not be edited. as for the rules, you need not have different splits-i#s for DAS since you should play BS for 22-77 (or DAS BS as the case may be. this leaves ONLY the issue of playing dealer's 6 or Ace with a few hands sensitive to h17/s17 rules. zg
A Brief History of Faro Bank
Posted by zengrifter on 19-Dec-2002 19:27:47 (#1916)
Faro Bank
For lay-gambling historians, there is a marvelous 'brief history' of Faro Bank, a banked game that preceeded BJ, on the nonBJ board. Faro died out around the time that BJ started gaining ground - the first counters ("casers" as in "casing the deck") appeared in Faro. zg
http://www.cardcounter.com/nonBJ.pl?read=404
Happy holidays; Merry Christmas: happy 2003
Posted by Learning to count on 19-Dec-2002 20:45:16 (#1920)
God bless all of you and a merry christmas. I hope you all get a purple chip in your stocking. Oh yeah Merry XMAS Frank Stanton where ever you are. HEHEH
Re: Happy holidays; Merry Christmas: happy 2003
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 19-Dec-2002 21:01:49 (#1922)
Thank you, and backatcha! Many blessings to you and everyone here.
Re: Happy holidays; Merry Christmas: happy 2003
Posted by BradRod on 19-Dec-2002 22:01:59 (#1925)
Best wishes for a joyous and succesful holiday season to all.
I am off to the big apple. Will probably be popping in to Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun for seweral sessions while I'm in the neighborhood. Be back after x-mas.
Brad Rod
"The Spite Before Christmas"
Posted by zengrifter on 20-Dec-2002 02:54:00 (#1935)
"The Spite Before Christmas" is at nonBJ -
http://www.cardcounter.com/nonBJ.pl?read=440
Re: "The Spite Before Christmas"
Posted by Learning to count on 20-Dec-2002 07:46:08 (#1938)
"C'est la vie, come-what-may,
Fa-la-la, la-de-da,
Your bills are postponed
Till next spring, so hoorah!
What would Christ say,
If he were here now
To see how blasphemed
Is his selflessness vow;"
Re: "The Spite Before Christmas"
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 20-Dec-2002 15:25:15 (#1949)
Best of luck on your boat trip. May all your ice be found in your glass!
"....for those in peril on the sea...."
happy holidays
Posted by hammer on 20-Dec-2002 23:23:39 (#1966)
are the thing to say...don't assume everyone partakes in this
retail holiday..
Re: happy holidays
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 22-Dec-2002 10:28:08 (#1977)
Yes you are right. There is a politically correct way to say everything. The "bling bling" of anything that attaches itself to things of a Holy nature is our own sad state of affairs, but that happens for every religion or idiology. Fortunately we can see beyond all of these trappings, just like we walk right past the slots on the way to the blackjack table. Advantage play on the spiritual level peeps! ;>
LVA Coupons Just Confirmed
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 19-Dec-2002 21:16:00 (#1923)
BREAKING NEWS
Coupons Here
The Las Vegas Advisor's famous Pocketbook of Values coupon package is complete for 2003. This year's package is once again the most valuable collection of money-saving and money-making coupons for Las Vegas visitors available from any source. The entire roster of 136 coupons for rooms, food, beverage, entertainment, car rental, and gambling is listed here. To find out more about the Las Vegas Advisor's Pocketbook of Values, as well as all the other benefits of Las Vegas Advisor membership, see the Featured Product below.
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Arizona Charlie's Decatur Accommodations $19/$39 Per Night or Free
Santa Fe Station Accommodations $39.99 Room Rate
Sam's Town Accommodations $44.99 Room Rate
Palms All Purpose Comp 50% Off Up To $50
Nevada Landing Buffets 2 Free Buffets
Arizona Charlie's Decatur Buffets 2-For-1 Buffet
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I guess we KILLED that deal... (for sale)
Posted by zengrifter on 19-Dec-2002 21:46:26 (#1924)
... Dr.Org asked me if I thought that LVA would lose alot of members with the LOSS of MOST of the HIGH-GAIN coups, I told him, "they'll certainly lose my 20+ subscriptions per year!" zg
(ps, we no longer advocate LVA POV coups!)
(ps, I still have 2 fresh 2002 POVs for sale - exp.12-23)
Re: I guess we (PS)
Posted by zengrifter on 20-Dec-2002 00:15:27 (#1934)
Ps - the www.casinoperks.com book has crashed in value as well (we are NOT advocating that product either at this time, BUT... there are 2 HIGH GAIN 2002 LVA POVs in MINT condition remaining with 4 days left to use... WHO WANTS THE D*MN THINGS?? zg
Re: LVA Coupons Just Confirmed
Posted by The Mayor on 20-Dec-2002 12:02:33 (#1942)
It's gone...
According to LVA: about 80% of purchases were "multiple" -- and the casinos learned quickly that a coupon meant the person would play it and leave.
Speaking of that, I played a 2-1 BJ coupon and it cost me $200 -- 30 minutes witht a BJ heads-up. I spoke to a friend who set the record, losing over $600 on the GG 2-1 coupon. Coupons are fun, but not a sure thing (OK, they are a sure thing, if you play them all the time).
--Mayor
ILL18 I am confused
Posted by Splitz on 19-Dec-2002 23:05:30 (#1927)
WHat is the reasoning behind hitting a 13 against a 4 when the count is greater than or equal to 0?... if it is greater than wouldnt there be more 10's = higher chance of busting?... do I have it wrong? I got this out of John May's book.
-Thanks!
Re: ILL18 I am confused
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 20-Dec-2002 06:37:51 (#1936)
13 v 2 and 13 v 3 are in his book, not 13 v 4. John has been informed 1000 times of this error and has taken a lot of heat for it. 13 v 2 <0 you hit, 13 v 3 -2 you can hit.
Re: ILL18 I am confused
Posted by Learning to count on 20-Dec-2002 07:16:42 (#1937)
"13 v 2 and 13 v 3 are in his book, not 13 v 4. John has been informed 1000 times of this error and has taken a lot of heat for it. 13 v 2 <0 you hit, 13 v 3 -2 you can hit."
Who Is John May? I have seen the roar over his posts but I really dont know him as a author? I suggest that at a -1 TC you leave any way. I did not even memorize any of the Negative TC. Once it hits -1, adios. Also read Blackjack II by Don Schlesinger for the truth on the Il 18 and fab four!
I am off now on a cruise for Christmas. See you guys and have a Merry Christmas. Depdending on how i do I may send a post via sattlelite phone from the boat on how my play onboard is going. A Semi-live trip report. ZG a happy new year to you. Mcgarvey Merry Christmas again!
Re: ILL18 I am confused
Posted by Splitz on 21-Dec-2002 23:13:04 (#1973)
John May wrote a book called "Get the Edge on Blackjack" .. I think thats what its called. He posts @ the advantageplayer.com message board. That's all I know!
Oh.. and I was kidding about the 13v4.. I looked again and it said 12 v 4... but you wouldn't hit a 12 v 4 with a TC of greater or equal to 0 would you?!
Re: ILL18 I am confused
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 29-Dec-2002 16:20:06 (#2164)
Less than, not greater than. More small cards when the count goes south.
Any Vegas Visitors?
Posted by Sonny on 19-Dec-2002 23:34:25 (#1928)
Anyone gonna be in Vegas for the holidays? If not, you should think about it. Check out the nice $16 rooms and "purchase match" bonus that the Imperial Palace is offering:
"FREE - $100 Bankroll Bonus - In addition, we are offering you our optionable Bankroll Bonus. If you love the action in the Casino, you will definitely like the Casino Bankroll Bonus. When you arrive and buy $100 in negotiable gaming chips, the Bankroll Bonus rewards you with $100 in Match Play casino chips (per room, per stay), collecting $200 in pure casino action for only $100. (Even money bets on Blackjack only.)"
Don't take my word for it:
http://www.imperialpalace.com/winter.html
Otherwise, if you've already made reservations I'll see y'all there!
-Sonny-
P.S.-No, I don't work there, although if I win too much of their money it may start to feel like it!
Re: Any Vegas Visitors? The IP...
Posted by zengrifter on 20-Dec-2002 00:03:08 (#1932)
The IP has 3 decent 2D games $10-25 min as well as 15 or so 85% pene 6D h17/DAS TRACKABLE - liberal comps (lo/mid roller, RF= 4hrs @ $25 ave bet) - add the extra $100 and its a winner (hint - try to get two rooms using a spouse or friend, or just yourself if ballsy and altIDs and get $200 bonus) zg
Re: Any Vegas Visitors? The IP...
Posted by Sonny on 20-Dec-2002 11:19:52 (#1939)
>(hint - try to get two rooms using a spouse or friend, or just
>yourself if ballsy and altIDs and get $200 bonus) zg
Already did! Luckily I have a wife who supports my Blackjack playing (and has a beautifully malicious heart!).
-Sonny-
greetings from Vegas!
Posted by The Mayor on 20-Dec-2002 11:59:19 (#1941)
I am in a hole-in-the-wall on Freemont Street, where $8 buys 30 minutes.
I do have a back-off to report. I visited the Flamingo twice this trip. The first time for an hour, I wonged shoes, and made about $200. The second time in there was about a day later (different shift). I sat down to play a shoe heads-up. The count tanked and I flat bet $10 the whole shoe ($5 min table). I made about $150 on that shoe. After the shoe Vinny came up to me and said: "we don't want your action -- this is a business, you know." I looked back through my records and found that I had played in the Flamingo the last 3 trips a total of about 10 hours, and was up about $2400 there, with only one losing session. Yeah, figures.
It's been a great trip -- a lot of visiting and hanging out with friends (many from green chip on bj21) -- not a lot of play, about 12 hours in 3 days. I played at the Western twice, without being offered drugs!
Coming home tomorrow,
Cheers!
--Mayor
Re: greetings from Vegas! CALLS ALWAYS
Posted by zengrifter on 20-Dec-2002 12:55:57 (#1943)
>>I am in a hole-in-the-wall on Freemont Street, where $8 buys 30 minutes.<<
------------------
Thanks for clearing that up.
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 20-Dec-2002 14:31:06 (#1945)
When he said "where $8 gets you 30 minutes",
I thought he meant 30 mins. to stay in the room.
When I bring a lady friend along, I always have the problem of what to do for the other 25 minutes.
LOL.
Reminds me of...
Posted by zengrifter on 20-Dec-2002 14:45:53 (#1946)
...the best part of a bl*w j*b, after you are married - the 5 minutes of silence! zg
Damn ZG You Must Have A Good Wife!
Posted by SammyBoy on 20-Dec-2002 17:07:15 (#1957)
Mine quit doing that after I married her.
Re: Damn Good Wife!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 20-Dec-2002 20:26:36 (#1961)
...the best part of a bl*w j*b since I got married is listening to myself going crazy for 30 minutes or so, then I return the flavor ;>
You Must Have A Good Wife!
Posted by hammer on 22-Dec-2002 00:42:28 (#1974)
Training like bjack,then the wife or other gal shall
indulge. Simply hold out on all,and then she will beg you to
let her go downtown.
Re: greetings from Vegas!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 20-Dec-2002 15:20:57 (#1948)
Keep up the good work! See ya back home soon...
RMcG
Re: greetings from Vegas!
Posted by zengrifter on 20-Dec-2002 17:31:30 (#1958)
>> See ya back home soon...<<
One wonders if that's a threat or a promise! zg
Re: greetings from Vegas!
Posted by dogman on 21-Dec-2002 15:59:51 (#1969)
Nice site Eliot.
Question about wonging- Do you wong in on a specific high plus count, or do you wong in on any plus count you see?
We're talking 6D shoes?
Regards,
dogman
for fear of being repetitive....I would *LINK*
Posted by BjFool on 20-Dec-2002 16:14:53 (#1955)
call on anybody in this more-than-capable community to educate me on the following matter:
since 4's and 5's are generally considered key cards for the dealer WHY is it that they're no where recommended for a side count? in my humble view an advantage player would profit more (playing/betting) by including these 2 cards in a side count (after the A's) before say 6's,7's,or 8's.
Feel free to provide a lengthy explanation (with details please) so i can clear my mind because it's been bothering me for some time now.
A friend and I have been testing Hi-Opt II (A,4,5 side count) for a couple of sessions now and it's been great in terms of playing and betting. Maybe we're heading the wrong way but we feel that it's more important to know how many 4's and 5's remain in the decks than 6,7,or 8's.
thanks in advance,
BjFool
Because...
Posted by zengrifter on 20-Dec-2002 17:37:12 (#1959)
"since 4's and 5's are generally considered key cards for the dealer WHY is it that they're no where recommended for a side count? in my humble view an advantage player would profit more (playing/betting) by including these 2 cards in a side count (after the A's) before say 6's,7's,or 8's. "
-----------------------
The 4s and 5s are ADEQUATELY reflected in the primary count - sidecounts are for BIVALUATE cards (ie, cards that can act as a large/small card - eg, 6-7-8)
Don't waste your time sidecounting the 4s/5s - your results thus far ARE MEANINGLESS! zg
Re: Four n Five Jive
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 20-Dec-2002 20:39:26 (#1962)
4 = +2 and 5 = +2, and if you have the Hi Opt II down now, I would just go with the flow. IF there is a better counting system it isn't worth the effort. You could even relax Hi Opt II and play Zen. I don't like Zen because it gives the inferior 6 card the same value as the 4 and 5 card to balance the Ace. uh uh.
What I enjoy about Hi Opt II is that it actually helps you keep track of the A and the 4 and 5 anyways, but the "benidict arnold" cards of 7 and 8 in particular can work for you or against you, and that is why they can be side counted to give you better playing efficiency.
Sorry about the Link forgot to remove it *NM*
Posted by BjFool on 20-Dec-2002 16:21:15 (#1956)
Double Exposure
Posted by ElementX on 20-Dec-2002 21:47:51 (#1963)
Anyone have any thoughts on double exposure blackjack- they have it at Stratosphere and a few other places. I know the dealer wins all ties so I've stayed away from it. Are plus counts still advantageous? Just wanted to get some opinions.
ElementX
double exposure bj ties push
Posted by Steve on 12-Sep-2005 21:34:25 (#14008)
There's an Indian casino in Oklahoma offering double exposure from 10am-3pm Monday through Friday with no alterations to normal play. 6 deck CSM, tie is a push(not a loss), blackjack pays 3:2, double any 2 cards, double after split, etc. About a 7.1% player advantage. Max bet $50. I've made quite a bit of cash but am not sure ho long they are playing it. Something about a $320,000 blackjack player's pool they have to give away. Might as well give it to me. Also, only 2 tables open, so you have to get their early.
Play multiple hands if allowed. *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 15-Sep-2005 20:26:18 (#14021)
Steve, do you have email? :) *NM*
Posted by Sun Runner on 15-Sep-2005 22:03:10 (#14023)
Check Wong's ProBJ or Uston's M$BJ *NM*
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 20-Dec-2002 22:15:11 (#1964)
Wiz Link *NM* *LINK*
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 20-Dec-2002 22:19:11 (#1965)
DEBJ is NOT worth your time...
Posted by zengrifter on 21-Dec-2002 02:21:12 (#1968)
...though its more or less as theoretically beatable as regBJ, there are not enough games around to recon good-pene, and unless you have taken the time to learn holecardBS (essentially the same strategy) the DEBS is too fundamentally different. zg
Agree *NM*
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 21-Dec-2002 20:13:22 (#1971)
veggie
Posted by hammer on 20-Dec-2002 23:28:20 (#1967)
Just back myself,also kicked out of fh..and I never even
played there before.
Re: veggie
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 21-Dec-2002 20:09:26 (#1970)
Nice work!
Question for Rob McGarvey
Posted by BjFool on 22-Dec-2002 09:52:25 (#1975)
Tell me do the indices for Hi-Opt II that you gave me through a sim (there are more than 120) reflect the true count divided by the number of half decks or complete decks?
thanks
Re: Question for Rob McGarvey
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 22-Dec-2002 10:16:36 (#1976)
"Tell me do the indices for Hi-Opt II that you gave me through a sim (there are more than 120) reflect the true count divided by the number of half decks or complete decks?"
It is the running count per deck. You divide your running count to come up with your true count. The way you said divide TC...you don't divide your TC. Once you get good enough to see that there is 1.5 decks left and you have an RC of +6 your TC is +4.
Re: Question for Rob McGarvey
Posted by BjFool on 22-Dec-2002 15:08:49 (#1978)
Let me give you an exemple:
game: 6 decks
dealer's up card : 4
my hand : 13
running count -14
2 decks remaing (so the TC would actually be: -7)
now the indices you provided with your sims say hit if < -5
TC (-7) < -5 ; so according to the indices I should hit right?
if that's correct the -5 number represents the TC (RC / # of decks remaining)
let me know
appreciate your help, always
BjFool
Re: -7
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 22-Dec-2002 19:55:39 (#1979)
Bang on. You only have a min bet out, but proper play is still paramount to our success in the end. A dealer named Patrick at the Stardust told me I was the luckiest kid he ever saw. He has been dealing since Livercrotchy was tinkling the keys in LV, so I take that as a major compliment. The count had tanked and I was sitting at third hitting stiffs and beating him hand after hand. A couple was sitting at second. He was betting black and his wife was on his right betting red. I asked him if he had a problem with my plays out of respect for his black action and he told me I was doing a great job and to play any way I saw fit. Patrick ended up busting more that I did for that particular shuffle. 2 deck game. I should have told him to bet 2 black when I had more than a red out, but he was a bit too talkative and would probably have said something to Pat, although I'm sure they knew I was counting.
rob/veggie hits/rid of the pit crew.
Posted by hammer on 22-Dec-2002 21:09:55 (#1980)
Not necessarily, I saw a kid a few nights ago that started with
$100,and walked in two hours with $15,000.
Winning hand after hand betting big,and surprise, it was
a csm deck.
Noticed on Don's site that he advocates not counting
cards when playing db exposure bjack.LLuck has the game with a
decent pen and easy to jump,if you so desire.
While in Veggie at one particular club the pitgal nearly zoomed
up to my face(female pit) and did the stare routine. How
did I get rid of her: by mentioning loudly to other players
about the gal dealer that got shot at the gg and the next
hit in town will be a pit,she then left.
Re: rob/veggie hits/rid of the pit crew.
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 22-Dec-2002 21:30:13 (#1981)
Whew! You came pretty close to threatening her, something I would be careful of. There are people out there with a lot of enemies and if someone does them you could be a suspect. Heck you can tell a lady she is looking very pretty today and end up getting fired for sexual harassment. I have a friend that has an X that calls the cops and tells them he threated her on the Friday of a long weekend sending him to jail for the weekend! That happened three times before they figured out what was going on.
Problem with Hoyle Casino counter
Posted by Splitz on 22-Dec-2002 22:38:52 (#1982)
I turn the counter on in Hoyle Casino so I can check with it, but every now and then my count does not match with it! At first I thought it was my mistake... but it kept happening where I would remember what I start a round with, then I would look over the cards at the end of the round and it still wouldn't add up!
ok, 1st hand of the shoe (so RC started @ 0) end of the hand, the game's RC had 0 and i had +1...
here are the cards
1st person: J J
Me : 5 7 3 6
3rd person: 9 6 K ; 9 J
4th person: 8 9
Dealer : 7 9 3
Re: Problem with Hoyle Casino counter
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 23-Dec-2002 12:11:00 (#1983)
Hoyle uses Hi Opt I so 3456 are +1 and 10JQK are -2, and I think you are looking for the running count, and it is giving you the true count, which would not change or match the RC unless you are playing single deck.
Re: Problem with Hoyle Casino counter
Posted by Splitz on 23-Dec-2002 14:22:23 (#1984)
I am looking for the RC. and on the count thing it gives both RC and TC... and it gives an Ace side count too. maybe it is just messed up.
Re: Problem with Hoyle Casino counter
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 24-Dec-2002 11:08:03 (#1994)
I'll have to take a look at it during the holidays. I normally do not use their count or play decisions, and use my own betting strats. What are you trying to use Hoyle for? Are you trying to learn the Hi Opt I count or basic strategy?
Re: Problem with Hoyle Casino counter
Posted by Splitz on 24-Dec-2002 19:52:06 (#2030)
well I didnt know it used Hi-Opt.. I was using it to practice hi-lo
Re: Problem with Hoyle Casino counter
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 24-Dec-2002 20:58:42 (#2035)
Read the docs. I think it uses Hi Low. I have another program Dr. Blakjack that uses Hi Opt I. I haven't used either for years.
The main problem with Hoyle...
Posted by zengrifter on 24-Dec-2002 01:28:52 (#1991)
... is that its an inferior app - the better ones include SmartCards, NeUltraMC, CasinoVerite, BJ678. zg
Re: The main problem with Hoyle...
Posted by Eric Lambi on 24-Dec-2002 10:34:45 (#1993)
I have this program (the most recent version) and use it frequently. It uses the Hi-Lo, so you're count should be correct. I've also noticed what I think are some flaws with its counting, but I've only noticed problems when splitting cards. It seems to me at least that it ALWAYS loses count when you split a hand. I've always just assumed their QA couldn't be so bad as to miss something like that and maybe I'm just crazy, but there are other bugs in the game too, so maybe not.
Re: The main problem with Hoyle...
Posted by Splitz on 24-Dec-2002 19:53:31 (#2031)
hmm.. that might be it then! because the example i gave above had splitting of 9's... that's wierd.
I use their counter to 1.) check my count
and 2.) see the TC... since I can't see the discard tray on that game
Re: The main problem with Hoyle...
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 24-Dec-2002 21:02:51 (#2036)
You have to watch the shoe to determine how many decks have been dealt. Don't use the program to check your count, you have it down. Are you using departure indices or playing basic strategy?
Re: The main problem with Hoyle...
Posted by Splitz on 24-Dec-2002 23:05:19 (#2039)
"watch the shoe?" do you mean keep track of rounds played or just see how depleted the shoe is?
also, I am just doing basic strat right now. I wrote down the Il18 but then I found out that John May messed somein up.. I think that was you that told me.
Anyway, I don't want to learn the wrong thing and then re-learn it.. so I am waiting until my copy of Blackjack attack (by Don S.) comes in from Amazon.. which would prolly be thurs. then I can learn the variances! :)
Re: The main problem with Hoyle... *LINK*
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 25-Dec-2002 12:09:15 (#2042)
"watch the shoe?" do you mean keep track of rounds played or just see how depleted the shoe is?
#Yes, I used to play single deck at 50% pen, and it was easy to do.
also, I am just doing basic strat right now. I wrote down the Il18 but then I found out that John May messed somein up.. I think that was you that told me.
Anyway, I don't want to learn the wrong thing and then re-learn it.. so I am waiting until my copy of Blackjack attack (by Don S.) comes in from Amazon.. which would prolly be thurs. then I can learn the variances! :)
What should serious BJ player have?
Posted by Blackjack major on 23-Dec-2002 20:02:41 (#1985)
I want to be a serious BJ player, what software & books shold I have in my BJ library? thank-you for helping.
Re: What should serious BJ player have?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 24-Dec-2002 11:16:53 (#1995)
You should take a look at the Mayor's reading list:
http://www.cardcounter.com/Reading_List.htm
There are many free tools available through the links at the Card Counters Cafe:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/blackjackcardcounterscafe/links
and some here on this site. It depends on what the reason you are looking for comp software is for the right answer to your question. I prefer to use real cards to practice with, and usually use the software of real onLine casinos to "practice" against.
Re: What should serious BJ player have?
Posted by Cyrano on 24-Dec-2002 11:32:47 (#1997)
I'm surprised he included Million Dollar BJ. That books seems a little dated and the APC count is hard (level 3) and not as accurate as AOII. Though the stories are good, you can find more realistic and better ones in LV BJ Diary or BJ Autumn (and probably more suited, since you probably don't have hundreds of thousands of dollars and an army of counters to do team plays). All of the other books are certainly terrific. I would consider Million Dollar BJ the marginal book--if you have the money and you enjoy reading, get this book. If you don't feel like spending another $20 or so, the other 9 books will certainly fill you with enough knowledge to make money at the casinos.
Start here...
Posted by zengrifter on 24-Dec-2002 11:38:53 (#1999)
...forget 'DD's selection, and forget MDBJ (and forget the CCCafe, if you drop me an email I will send you the complete links-list, the ones that matter) - get Snyder's BBIBJ and BJ678 software, everything else is 'periphery'. zg
It's an honor!
Posted by Blackjack major on 24-Dec-2002 14:01:57 (#2009)
Thank-you very much for responding to my post, it's an honor. Zengrifter, I appreciated, I don't know how to get your email address. Thank-you
Re: What should serious BJ player have?
Posted by The Mayor on 24-Dec-2002 11:59:05 (#2002)
MDB is not about learning the system, it is about reading the accounts of Uston's life and team play. The system is not worth a lot with what's known today.
Really, you only need one book with a system to get started. Either KO, or Hi-Lo should be your first system. After that, it is all about learning how to play, how to survive in the heat of casinos and make the best of it.
--Mayor
Re: What OR...
Posted by zengrifter on 24-Dec-2002 13:08:13 (#2006)
"Either KO, or Hi-Lo should be your first system. "
------
Guide to web-source IDs...
Posted by zengrifter on 23-Dec-2002 21:40:33 (#1988)
...may be found on the NonBJ page. zg
Re: Guide to web-source IDs...
Posted by phantom007 on 24-Dec-2002 16:59:31 (#2014)
Thank you, ZG, for the info. FBO CC.com patrons, may I ask:
1. Do you play under your own, or another name?
2. If "Yes" to "another", do you use I.D.'s provided by sources
noted in your post?
3. If "Not", then where can I get a Good I.D. like the one that
you are using?
4. When one gets a "Good I.D.", then how does one get Credit Cards
in its "same" name?
And for what it is worth, a recent trip to an Illinois Casino revealed that in the hallway leading to the "boat", there was a poster indicating "Common I.D. Cards, and "Common Counterfeits". This poster was guarded by a Security Guard, of course.
I live in the "Bible Bra", located just above the "Bible Belt"...here, anyone can gamble, but to drink ALCOHOL, You Must Be 21! Paranoid!
Thank you!
phantom007.
**My responses -
Posted by zengrifter on 25-Dec-2002 22:16:50 (#2052)
**My responses -
1. Do you play under your own, or another name?
**Both, actually - my own name and ID in some joints, but mostly I play under various aliases.
2. If "Yes" to "another", do you use I.D.'s provided by sources noted in your post?
**NO, but only because such sources are OVER-PRICED at $50+
3. If "Not", then where can I get a Good I.D. like the one that you are using?
**The ID sources indicated are top-quality, price notwithstanding. Alternatively, one can make his own IDs easily using a scanner and graphic software and lamination.
**One of the things that I do is I constantly have friends obtain player-cards in their own names and then give them to me.
4. When one gets a "Good I.D.", then how does one get Credit Cards in its "same" name?
**First I would ask, why do you need a matching credit card?
And for what it is worth, a recent trip to an Illinois Casino revealed that in the hallway leading to the "boat", there was a poster indicating "Common I.D. Cards, and "Common Counterfeits". This poster was guarded by a Security Guard, of course.
**The sort of noveltyIDs offered by the net-sources or easily homemade would not appear on the "common counterfits" list. zg
non BJ page
Posted by BradRod on 24-Dec-2002 17:16:22 (#2015)
how do you get there from here ? or does one need to save it as a separate bookmark ?
thanks
Re: non BJ page
Posted by The Mayor on 24-Dec-2002 17:51:40 (#2016)
Click on "Non-Bj Message Board" on the left hand panel of this site.
Re: non BJ page
Posted by BradRod on 24-Dec-2002 18:16:40 (#2020)
thanks mayor but, i do not see a left hand panel on this site,, also i still have not seen your profile... what else am i missing here ?
Brad
Never Mind
Posted by BradRod on 24-Dec-2002 18:33:34 (#2022)
i neede to use a diifferent server . i see it now
Reno trip report(a brutal one)
Posted by koko on 23-Dec-2002 23:11:11 (#1989)
I was in Reno last weekend came back today. Not many visitors because of the bad weather last weekend. I play KO full with some RA indices. Without going to sesion by session since I played too many spread over 25 hours. I am a red chipper and my trip bankroll is 40 max bets(1-5 spread). My total BR is 400 units. My stay is already comped. Played in Boomtown most of the time. Excellent penentration in their single deck games. Heads up available after
1 AM till 10. I was comped fully (room and food)
On 12/20/02 -- Up 80 units in boomtown.
12/21/02 -- Down 100 units which is 180 units negative swing.
12/22/02 -- Down 40 units.
Total trip loss is 140 units.
Except for the first 6 hours which I was up by 80 units the rest is brutal. Hand after dealers are making 20 and 21. Never won two max bets in a row. Just before coming I just flat bet for about 30 mins just to see how unkucky I am. I lost 20 units in that time.Fantastic penentration found lot of heads up games but its the dealer getting all the big cards during +ve counts. Well I need a big break to forget this.
Very sorry...
Posted by The Mayor on 24-Dec-2002 11:18:02 (#1996)
I lost 400 units in about 30 hours last July. This game can eat you up inside.
I hope your rest brings you back to the tables in better spirits!
Happy holidays,
--Mayor
Re: Very sorry... -140u...
Posted by zengrifter on 24-Dec-2002 11:34:09 (#1998)
... w/ 5u topBet over several hours is NOTHING - it swings back the other way even quicker - +100u in a 1hr session is NOTHING - in BJ you LOVE THE SWINGS and love having enough BR to keep playing, win or lose! zg
Ps - I have lost as much as 400u in 20hrs of 1D play (8u topBets)
Brutal, but the Battle is Not Over!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 24-Dec-2002 12:45:03 (#2004)
You took a good kicking and you feel beat up. Down $700, you feel like you have a huge hole to crawl up out of. If you give up now, you will be like so many counters before you who took a good pounding and gave up. Let yourself "heal" for a while and go get them again when you are ready. Leave that $700 in your log book and start fresh. Don't go back with revenge on your mind. Just go back and fight them again. Continue to fight, no matter what happens (unless you find the dealer is cheating). The longer you fight them the more likely it will be that you will defeat them and bring home the prize. Enjoy your comps, you have earned them. Maybe you should be keeping track of what they are worth in another log. A 1%-2% edge is nothing in the gambler's short run, but it is enough in the advantage player's long run.
-140u is NOT brutal...
Posted by zengrifter on 24-Dec-2002 13:05:21 (#2005)
... its very common, get used to it OFTEN! zg
True
Posted by The Mayor on 24-Dec-2002 13:35:10 (#2008)
It is vary rare that I don't go through a 200+ unit swing on a trip.
Basic Strategy question
Posted by Cyrano on 23-Dec-2002 23:15:25 (#1990)
Does anybody know what's the loss in EV by not using optimal BS? Say, if you use 1D BS in 8D games or vice versa. Do you lose more EV by using least decks BS in 8-deck or by using 8D BS in 1D? What's the most "universal" (loses the least EV) for all decks?
Re: Basic Strategy question
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 24-Dec-2002 06:16:54 (#1992)
1D BS is more agressive than 6D BS is so if you are only going to learn one I would stick with 6D BS, especially if that is the game you will be playing most often. If you do play 1D it is easy to switch to the more appropriate plays, like D9 v 2 and D11 v ALL if the dealer checks for BJ. stand 7,7 v 10.
Re: Basic Strategy question
Posted by zengrifter on 24-Dec-2002 11:43:22 (#2000)
If you learn 6D BS and occaissionally use it in 1D games you will not suffer more than a .001 erosion of its effectiveness, and less variance anyway. So don't even bother with the 1D BS - however it will behoove you to learn both DAS and nonDAS pair splits. zg
Do the opposite if you are counting cards
Posted by T-Hopper on 24-Dec-2002 12:21:15 (#2003)
If you are counting cards, most of your money will be bet on + counts, where the optimal strategy is even more aggressive than single deck BS. Otherwise, I would suggest using the 2D BS as a reasonable compromise.
Very little
Posted by The Mayor on 24-Dec-2002 11:45:43 (#2001)
Very little.
Here are the differences in basic strategy between the two:
doubles:
11 vs. A
9 vs. 2
8 vs. 5,6
A,2 vs. 4
A,3 vs. 4
A,6 vs. 2
A,7 vs. 2
splits:
2,2 vs 2,3
3,3 vs 2,3
4,4 vs 5,6
Cumulatively, using SD strategy on a 6D game is less than -.04%. This is an approxmiation, as I will illustrate below.
Here is a sample "cost"
11 vs. A is correct in single deck to double
11 vs. A is correct in multiple deck to hit
So, let's assume you double it in both (you are playing SD strategy in
a multiple deck game). This strategy deviation will cost you 1.5% of EV each time you do it (from Wong's PBJ). That is, if you bet $100, this deviation will cost about $1.50 in EV. Now, 11 Vs. A arises on average about 250 out of 100,000 hands (again, from Wong's PBJ, page 296). Thus for every 100,000 hands you play, betting $100 per hand, this play deviation will cost you 250*$1.50 = $375.
If we take this example as "typical" (I don't want to do all the calculations), then the 10 deviations cited above will cost 10*$375 = $3,750 per 100,000 hands betting $100 per hand. The net effect is then a loss of $3750 for a total of $10,000,000 of action, or -.0003750, or -.0375%
Thus, I am willing to say that the approximate effect of always using SD strategy on shoe games contributes a net loss of at most -.04%.
--Mayor
Thanks
Posted by Cyrano on 24-Dec-2002 13:34:45 (#2007)
Seems all of you think if I should err, I should err on the side of caution. Though I'm mainly playing in N. Nev., the reduction in variance is good, and as T-Hopper noted, most of my high-money bets will be made with high counts, where there are deviations galore to consolidate the different strategies (more than enough to overcome the -0.04% loss by using the wrong BS). The only question now is: 2D BS (Reno rules or Vegas rules), 4D BS (Vegas rules), or 6D BS (Vegas rules)?
Re: Thanks
Posted by T-Hopper on 24-Dec-2002 14:53:26 (#2010)
The only question now is: 2D BS (Reno rules or Vegas rules), 4D BS (Vegas rules), or 6D BS (Vegas rules)?
I am working on software (to be announced VERY SOON) that includes a feature to allow you to simply include all these games, give each of them a weight based on how often you play and how much you bet, and the computer will generate a composite strategy that is the best that can be used under the given range of conditions.
T-Hopper
Posted by Cyrano on 24-Dec-2002 15:47:50 (#2011)
I'm still waiting for your count system. every so often, I see you post "it's coming soon... any day now.. it's coming soon.." for the last few months. Do you have a definite time yet?
If he really wants it...
Posted by zengrifter on 24-Dec-2002 18:00:49 (#2018)
... give him the beta. zg
T-H and Bushido systems available now! *LINK*
Posted by T-Hopper on 24-Dec-2002 18:27:09 (#2021)
See the link below. Each of the volumes is really 2 books in one.
Beta-practioners first...
Posted by zengrifter on 24-Dec-2002 18:43:22 (#2024)
... you should give away a couple dozen systems to the board readers, get a core group going, then sell your wares to the next tier. Is there much text with each? zg
Re: Beta-practioners first... *LINK*
Posted by T-Hopper on 24-Dec-2002 18:46:26 (#2025)
Each volume is 8.5 x 11, and close to 200 pages. Roughly the same size as Beyond Counting and Michael Dalton's BJ Encyclopedia, much bigger than any others I can think of.
Re: Beta-practioners first...
Posted by Cyrano on 24-Dec-2002 19:06:59 (#2026)
FINALLY... and just in time to buy it for a present. Hey, T-Hopper, can I ask for 2 more wishes for Christmas: 1) Make it downloadable so I don't need to wait... and 2) Give a package discount for buying the set?
Re: Beta-practioners first...
Posted by zengrifter on 28-Dec-2002 02:00:54 (#2090)
"Each volume is 8.5 x 11, and close to 200 pages. Roughly the same size as Beyond Counting and Michael Dalton's BJ Encyclopedia, much bigger than any others I can think of."
---------------------------
Whoa! I asked "how many pages of TEXT" - how many out of 200 total? From memory and just glancing at the one(s) that I examined briefly, most of the 200 pages are CHARTS, are they not? If you like, send me two of the system books, say intermediate and advanced (autographed of course), and when I get done doing an honest review of my COMPEDcopy of Richard Reid's 'Dynamic BJ' I can perform same of your wares... OR if you are leary of my review send same to The Mayor and he can review them for all here.
I would have suggested that Rob McGarvey could be the reviewer, BUT a short while back I asked Dan of DeepNET to send a comp-reveiw set of PDA programs for Rob to review and unfortunately Rob didn't perform as promised, DeepNET reviews still outstanding MONTHS LATER! zg
Do you really think I want a review
Posted by T-Hopper on 28-Dec-2002 10:41:57 (#2093)
from someone who falsely accused me of spamming, right on the main index page, in all caps?
I apologise, 'spam' was too harsh a word...
Posted by zengrifter on 28-Dec-2002 14:02:58 (#2113)
...notwithstanding, your links involved BOTH a COMMERCIAL (just barely) board AND a systems-sales offering. Keep in mind that I was recently accused of "spamming" CCCafe by certain of its moderators there because I included a link to the non-commercial/nothing to sell CC.com... SO, to answer your question, lets have Eliot do the review if he is so inclined... or Barfarkel... or? You'll just need to provide one of each system booklets to the designated reviewer. Personally, I'm partial to works that long on text and short on charts, but thats me. zg
Re: I apologise, 'spam' was too harsh a word... *LINK*
Posted by T-Hopper on 28-Dec-2002 19:20:09 (#2141)
> Keep in mind that I was recently accused of "spamming" CCCafe by certain
> of its moderators there because I included a link to the noncommercial /
> nothing to sell CC.com...
Don't blame me for what someone else did to you. Moderators don't even have the ability to undelete posts. And did you notice I just accidentally "spammed" the board with another link to the Martin Gardner interview?
> SO, to answer your question, lets have Eliot do the review if he is so
> inclined... or Barfarkel... or?
So you no longer think I should give away "dozens to frequent posters"? There will definitely be more than one reviewer, probably one per site.
> Personally, I'm partial to works that long on text and short on charts
It's about 50/50, and the charts are carefully designed and originally conceived to convey a large amount of worthwhile information in a single page.
Mayor, May I Suggest?
Posted by phantom007 on 24-Dec-2002 16:39:48 (#2012)
That your most recent posts on this site (AND THE OTHER GUYS!) indicates that you are getting EXTREME HEAT at some locations now, thus, for the purpose of longevity, something must change!
Your cause is certainly noble. Jesus died for my Sins, and Hell, I will probably die from them too! Mayor, you promote a Cause for CC's world-wide, but if you are regelated (sp?) to Casino-On-Net Action, your value to the world of CC's will be depleted.
Therefore, may I suggest that you:
1. Keep your EXCELLENT website as is.
2. Keep your NAME, just play under another one.
3. Remove your PICTURE, and replace it with anyone you want.
I VOTE FOR ZG's picture!
phantom007.
Re: Mayor, May I Suggest?
Posted by The Mayor on 24-Dec-2002 16:48:00 (#2013)
Thanks for your kindness and your thoughtful suggestions. I almost never give my name when I play -- although when I gave one name (at T.I.) the boss said: "That sounds made up" -- all the nerve! The only place that ever gets my name is the hotel I am staying at.
As per my longevity/picture, I met a number of bj21 people recently who all said: "you don't look anything like your picture in real life." That's good news, and no doubt has made it much easier for me.
I will think about what you said, but other things are in the works too which I will disclose soon enough ...
--Mayor
My picture may be found at...
Posted by zengrifter on 24-Dec-2002 17:59:12 (#2017)
...BJFlameWars. zg
Re: My picture may be found at...
Posted by BradRod on 24-Dec-2002 18:13:49 (#2019)
i would like to see your picture.. i do not understand the reference though.
Brad
Re: My picture may be found at...
Posted by Cyrano on 24-Dec-2002 19:20:27 (#2028)
Do your due diligence and you'll be able to find it, tux and all. ;-)
Re: My picture may be found at...
Posted by BradRod on 24-Dec-2002 19:46:15 (#2029)
i found a sit called gameknot.com when i tried to search for it. is that it ??
Re: My picture may be found at...
Posted by Cyrano on 24-Dec-2002 20:00:25 (#2033)
Sorry, Brad, I don't think Grifter would be too thrilled at me giving away his personal info. Searching for pics is actually a pretty good game, similar to BJ. Learn the rules, learn your "opponent", and think on your feet. Mine is out there too, though it's a LOT harder to find, as I'm sure, are many others'. Just don't harrass them, and be sure to keep whatever you do find confidential. Respect others' privacy.
Re: My picture may be found at...
Posted by BradRod on 24-Dec-2002 20:26:12 (#2034)
ok,, sorry ZG ,,, i dont know what if any lines i crossed here, i saw the posting and was just trying to follow up on it,, but, i dont have to see it that badly.
there are a lot of references i see cited here that i do not understand. i was just trying to expand my knowledge and reference base more then pry into anyone's personal identity or life.
Brad
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/blackjackflamewars/ *LINK*
Posted by T-Hopper on 26-Dec-2002 12:55:21 (#2055)
I've never read any messages because you have to join just to view them, but just noticed there are suddenly 223 posts in this December.
Re: My picture may be found at...
Posted by Bob on 27-Dec-2002 00:23:28 (#2060)
Right. You'll never find my pic.
OK
Posted by BradRod on 24-Dec-2002 22:10:04 (#2038)
nice smile ZG but, I must say Doug Gra's pic is much more exciting.
Oklahoma BJ
Posted by LA Man on 24-Dec-2002 18:35:14 (#2023)
Heading to OK for a month -
Worth playing at any of the local OK casinos (heard they just put up tables with a small ante/collection - $1.00 on $100??) -
Any news on the quality of staff/surveillance/etc.
LAMan
Re: Oklahoma BJ
Posted by Cyrano on 25-Dec-2002 09:25:37 (#2040)
If they're charging $1 for ever $100 bet, then you've already have a negative EV of 1%. It's a tough game to beat, but if the OK ante is anything like the Cal ante ($1 ante for bets UP TO $100), then it makes things worse. Even if you bet $10, you still need to post $1 (-10% EV). And you pay this on EVERY hand, doesn't matter if you win, lose, or tie. It's really quite bad. I wouldn't suggest it. I've studied the CA version of "No-Bust" BJ, and the rules were already bad enough, giving the bank an edge of over 1.5%. If your rules are similar to No Bust BJ, then I suggest you play as little as possible, and bank as much as possible, especially during high counts.
Re: Oklahoma BJ
Posted by Cyrano on 25-Dec-2002 09:33:27 (#2041)
By the way, if you can "piggy-back" off someone else's ante (bet with them), at least you save on that $1. The best thing you can do is piggy-back off someone else's bank (if OK allows you to be banker)... by covering whatever money they leave uncovered. The worst thing you can do is bet the table minimum and still pay the $1. Hope this helps.
Re: Oklahoma BJ
Posted by LA Man on 25-Dec-2002 15:07:25 (#2043)
Sorry to say OK has the 'player pool' version - not the bankers - didn't know whether the investment in a 'computer counter' would work to overcome the ante - no real heat there but the highest wager allowed $200 with a $1 ante .5% -
Many dealers 'weak' along with their floor staff - just thought it was worth a look - the counting isn't a real problem - all dealt face up -
Anyone have thoughts on playing multi hands (you can play up to 3 hands - table max) -??
LA Man
Re: Oklahoma BJ
Posted by Cyrano on 25-Dec-2002 19:55:26 (#2049)
It depends on how liberal the rules are and how deep they deal. -0.5% is certainly beatable, IF that's all you have to contend with. I'm sure there's other rules, such as having multi decks, that will lower that -EV even more. Spreading to 3 hands? Only if you have over $100,000 and you can bet $200/hand. If you don't bet the max $200/hand, the ante will lower the EV faster than any rules or number of decks. With the liberal rules and the 1-3 spread and a pretty chunky bankroll, you can beat it. But, why would you want to when you can just hop over to Louisiana and play there? Like I said, piggy-back. But, then you're at the mercy of the other player's decisions. BTW, if you're considering investing in a counting computer, I have a Casey I'm trying to unload. Personally, I don't think it's worth using a counting computer and I don't know what was in my head when I bought it.
--Cy
Re: Casey *LINK*
Posted by T-Hopper on 27-Dec-2002 06:53:32 (#2062)
See the posts by Victor and my responses on the board below last Feb/March.
On the "ante" places
Posted by The Mayor on 25-Dec-2002 15:55:05 (#2047)
Check out their promotions. Sometimes they offer 2-1 BJ, or other great promos. That's where the money is.
--Mayor
Re: On the "ante" places
Posted by Cyrano on 25-Dec-2002 19:47:05 (#2048)
Maybe I'm living in the wrong place. Here in the Bay Area, the 2-1 BJ payout is for 2 Jokers (in 1-Joker per deck/8 decks), which happens like 1/80,000 times (lose $1 80,000 times to make the extra $100 wasn't worth it). It's like jackpot odds without the payout. Mayor, do you know where I can subscribe to get some of those promos?
Re: On the "ante" places
Posted by phantom007 on 25-Dec-2002 21:34:22 (#2050)
See my recent Post on www.rge21.com, and the threads that follow for good information.
phantom007
P.S.: "South and West Section".
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