Long-term BJ strategy

#1
Over the last month, I've kept a "simulated" diary, working off the bodog practice blackjack game. "Play" six simulated days a week, off on Sundays.

Playing 1-on-1. I am not counting cards but I am WATCHING trends (choppy play, streaks -- both winning and losing). I count my win-loss, similar to a baseball team's record. (Pushes don't count). I play basic/aggressive (DD 8 vs. 5 and 6, split any pair vs. 5 and 6 (yes, this includes 10s)).

For the first three "months", working a simulated $50,000 bankroll, I play $100 chips with a goal of leaving up three units ($300). 65% of those first three months, I hit my $300 up within 15 hands. Sometimes I'd go 3-0, sometimes even 6-7, but hit double downs.

Once I hit "April", I was up to + $57,000. So I bumped it up to $400 a hand, with a goal of $800 (just 2 units). That made the process even easier -- Once I hit $800 I was finished for the "day". Then in "June", up to $500 a hand/$1000 goal. Still hit PLUS $1,000 each and every day. Now, I'm at $271,250 UP for my simulated "year".

When it gets sticky is when I start out 4 (wins) - 13 (losses) or 9-20 and lose my first three or four double-downs. Yet a funny thing happens -- I always "make a run" later. When I start out 4-13 or 9-20, I never get back to even at, say, 35-35, but I always have a good "win 8 of 10" or seven in a row. The tricky part is recognizing when you bottom out. Once I get to 20 units down, then I'll bump up my bets. If I start out at $500 a hand, I may dump it back to $1,500 or $2,000. When the run swings back my way, then I'm good to even...and then some.

The most I was ever down in a single session was $65,000 -- I bumped it up to $8,000 a hand after beginning the session with 27 wins and 65 losses. Then I went 12-3, with blackjacks and three victorious double-downs, and ended up $25,000.

Is this completely crazy? Tracking wins/losses instead of cards. I know, I know, I'll hear "if it could be done this way, you'd see 300 books written and published about it." But isn't this a major advantage that players have...the ability to walk away after 2 hands...or 250 hands?

Overall, I have won 68.7% of double downs after 231 "simulated" days. When the total amount of hands played in a session goes over 70, I have never won more than I've lost.

Please, experts, chime in and tell me if this is completely nuts. 231 "simulated" days with 231 simulated "wins".
 

SPX

Well-Known Member
#2
exmediahack said:
Over the last month, I've kept a "simulated" diary, working off the bodog practice blackjack game. "Play" six simulated days a week, off on Sundays.

Playing 1-on-1. I am not counting cards but I am WATCHING trends (choppy play, streaks -- both winning and losing). I count my win-loss, similar to a baseball team's record. (Pushes don't count). I play basic/aggressive (DD 8 vs. 5 and 6, split any pair vs. 5 and 6 (yes, this includes 10s)).

For the first three "months", working a simulated $50,000 bankroll, I play $100 chips with a goal of leaving up three units ($300). 65% of those first three months, I hit my $300 up within 15 hands. Sometimes I'd go 3-0, sometimes even 6-7, but hit double downs.

Once I hit "April", I was up to + $57,000. So I bumped it up to $400 a hand, with a goal of $800 (just 2 units). That made the process even easier -- Once I hit $800 I was finished for the "day". Then in "June", up to $500 a hand/$1000 goal. Still hit PLUS $1,000 each and every day. Now, I'm at $271,250 UP for my simulated "year".

When it gets sticky is when I start out 4 (wins) - 13 (losses) or 9-20 and lose my first three or four double-downs. Yet a funny thing happens -- I always "make a run" later. When I start out 4-13 or 9-20, I never get back to even at, say, 35-35, but I always have a good "win 8 of 10" or seven in a row. The tricky part is recognizing when you bottom out. Once I get to 20 units down, then I'll bump up my bets. If I start out at $500 a hand, I may dump it back to $1,500 or $2,000. When the run swings back my way, then I'm good to even...and then some.

The most I was ever down in a single session was $65,000 -- I bumped it up to $8,000 a hand after beginning the session with 27 wins and 65 losses. Then I went 12-3, with blackjacks and three victorious double-downs, and ended up $25,000.

Is this completely crazy? Tracking wins/losses instead of cards. I know, I know, I'll hear "if it could be done this way, you'd see 300 books written and published about it." But isn't this a major advantage that players have...the ability to walk away after 2 hands...or 250 hands?

Overall, I have won 68.7% of double downs after 231 "simulated" days. When the total amount of hands played in a session goes over 70, I have never won more than I've lost.

Please, experts, chime in and tell me if this is completely nuts. 231 "simulated" days with 231 simulated "wins".


Sounds interesting. The guys here aren't going to like it and you probably won't get much support.

I would be more interested in hearing about how you did, though I think you should've started off with a more reasonable bankroll unless, for you, $50,000 is reasonable. It's certainly not for me.
 

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#3
NO!

Just. No.

It's just a computer's random number generator. It doesn't care about streaks, or what you've won, or how much you're betting. It just generated results from a virtual deck of cards that gets "reshuffled" every hand. I've played approximately six quintillion hands of RTG blackjack. It all works out the same in the end.

It's faily easy to optimize your play to eke out a small gain on a session, by quitting early. Martingale betting is the extreme example, but you could just flat bet and then walk as soon as you win a unit or two. Such a manner of play will result in a very large % of winning sessions, but usually with small wins. And the losing sessions will be big ones. (complete busts of however much you sit at the table with).

exmediahack said:
When the total amount of hands played in a session goes over 70, I have never won more than I've lost..
So, you're saying that when you play longerish sessions, you lose? That would be an example of the house advantage kicking in in the long term, except 70 hands is a joke in the long term. I've actually seen a dramatically unexpected swing in results from 9000 spins of a roulette wheel.

Just out of curiosity, are you varying anything else in your play besides bet increasing your bets after a losing streak, and setting a low threshold quit point?

I'm glad you're doing this will play money.
 

SPX

Well-Known Member
#4
See what I said? They're not going to like it. . .

I have an interesting Bodog story of my own.

I bought it one night or $25 and through a combination positive/negative progression, I hit a high of $187.50 at a $1 minimum game.

Eventually I hit a killer losing streak and lost it all but it was certainly an interesting experience as you consider that at the peak I was up 162 units which is insane.
 
#5
Answers.

Right now, it's just a "what if". I was a former dealer about 15 years ago (as a teenager) and am now in a professional occupation. This is a scenario I might explore in about 20 years, when I will have fewer obligations in my life, so $50,000 wouldn't be an unreasonable bankroll to build up/work from between now and then.

In a way, I guess it is a Martingale (which I HATE to admit -- it pains me to do so) but instead of straight losing streaks and doubling up -- I increase my bets, not on a specific streak, but on a trend.

Even through my record-keeping, it's apparent how the House wears down the player, especially my example on never having a winning record > 70 hands. Of course, in my scenario, I probably can't get to a winning record by then because I will have quit once up two units. My best "winning percentage", as I look at the records was 31 wins, 26 losses...but only because I was horrible on my DD that day (2-8).
 

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#7
Yeah, "free mode" slots are definitely considered to be looser than real money mode slots.

Blackjack games... not so sure. Changing the odds of the game would be "cheating", even if it wasn't real money, and even if it was in the player's favor.
 

GeorgeD

Well-Known Member
#8
exmediahack said:
<snip>

The most I was ever down in a single session was $65,000 -- I bumped it up to $8,000 a hand after beginning the session with 27 wins and 65 losses. Then I went 12-3, with blackjacks and three victorious double-downs, and ended up $25,000.
Look at it this way:
What if the $65K loss was the first session with your $50K bankroll and there was no other $50K stake?

The other thing that strikes me is that while there might be something to playing "trends", it would be difficult (impossible??) to program a simulation to prove (or disprove) it works over the long haul.
 

dacium

Well-Known Member
#9
That $65,000k down wouldn't have happened at the start because as he said it was $8,000 bets, at the start he was only betting $100, so it would have been about $800 down.

The reason why this appears to work is that its actually progression system that would take a very long time for you to hit the eventual loosing streak. This is because the streak that knocks you down, if you don't get it early, may take a very long time to encounter as you are continually increasing your bets.

Personally I think the game you have played was rigged. this is a classic case of undetectable rigging. I remember seeing a similar thing in party poker blackjack many years ago. if we opened the windows and only ever played 3 hands then closed it, somehow we could consistently win far more than we lost. I could never work out why, but we managed to turn a $1000 into over $10,000 playing only 3 hands with $10 then $25 bets. This was on play money, and it obviously didn't work on real money. It was my impression that the play money game gave you good starting hands on your first few hands of the session. The reason it is undetectable is that to test the game, people always play one huge session and work out the cards etc. and see what the chances were for pat hands and double down. But if only the first couple of hands are biased, you would have to play many many individual actually sessions.

Fortuenently what you have tried is very easy to simulate. If you can provide some exact rules, I can simulate this very easily.

Example:
Start with $50,000 and play until win $300. Leave (like leaving this actually matters, especially for a CSM!)
Once upto $60,000 play at $400 per hand, trying to win $800 (if fall back to $50,000 back to $300?)
Once upto $xx???? play at $xxx per hand, trying to win $xxx bets.

Please provide the exact rules and I will simulate it and show you how it goes.

What you will most likly find is this:
The majority of times you attemp this, (over half) you will never get to $60,000 or $57,000 as you did. The times that you do you will last an extremely long time. This is basic shapped variance. THe majority of people will fail quickly. The minority will go along long way.
 
#11
The total numbers.

On the one I'm currently playing, it doesn't tell the # of decks (I assume it's just a random number generator) -- I know, I know, I need to get a real "deck" game, be it 6- or 8-. Any shareware that you all know of? :)

Rules: It's 1-on-1, early surrender is offered (but I don't take it because I know it's hard to find in real life), dealer hits on soft 17, I can re-split.

So far, I've won 2341 hands, lost 2544, so I win 48.2% of my hands. Granted, I have some "weeks" where I come out ahead, (example: 40-33) but also plenty of losing weeks (232-319) -- but because of the deep bankroll-to-unit ratio (500 to 1, starting), I was able to absorb the early hits.

I think that it's one thing to "rig slots" to make them easier so that people will sign up to play for real money, but it's not like I'm winning 50%+ of my hands here. There is still a house edge present -- I'm just trying to recognize the natural streakiness of the game of BJ itself and take advantage.
 

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#12
Bodog doesn't offer early surrender. (actually, I was surprised they use late surrender at all, it's very rare on RTGs.)

RTG blackjack (what bodog uses) is either 2 or 4 or 6 decks, and reshuffled after each hand.
 
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