Would legalized sports betting impact blackjack?

JJP

Well-Known Member
#1
With legalized sports betting just around the corner, it is bound to have a sizeable effect on other forms of wagering. Horse racing will definitely be impacted. Slots? Probably not so much. But blackjack and poker? I would have to think so. Both involve the use of one's mind. Could this be the catalyst to drive casinos back to more "traditional" rules, like no 6-5, dealer standing on soft 17 etc. My gut instinct is most won't, but we can always hope.
 

JJP

Well-Known Member
#3
KewlJ said:
I don't see the connection. :confused:
Not everyone is an AP. Many people prefer to place their wagering dollars where it is legal. Just because there's been offshore options available for 20 years, doesn't mean that everyone has utilized it. Now, you may see people choosing to wager on a football, basketball or baseball game from the comfort of their home, instead of going into a smokey casino. There's no doubt in my mind it will impact wagering totals on other games.
 

ZenKinG

Well-Known Member
#5
JohnCrover said:
One day Blackjack is going to pay even money and only the highest of rollers are going to be able to get a 6 to 5 game.
Blackjack will never die. People have been calling for the end of blackjack for years. I can say with 100% certainty you will never see a 6:5 table in a hi limit room or at least a worse payout than you have on the main floor. The reason is quite simple. People might not realize they're getting raped with 6:5 playing $10 minimums, but let them start getting paid out 6:5 with $100 or 200$+ and then maybe the light bulb will go off in their little pig brains that they're getting legally robbed.
 

ZenKinG

Well-Known Member
#7
LC Larry said:
There are hundreds of people betting $100+ at 6:5 tables. And I'm not talking about any AP's or AP moves.
Betting $100 on the main floor is very different compared to $100 in the hi-limit room. Two different types of players. Ones in the hi-limit room usually have a good understanding of the game and play a lot. Casinos know this and that if they put 6:5 in the hi limit area p[layers are going to start to notice how much 6:5 rapes them especially if you start betting 200, 300 or 500+
 

LC Larry

Well-Known Member
#8
ZenKinG said:
Betting $100 on the main floor is very different compared to $100 in the hi-limit room. Two different types of players.
False. High limit players still stand on A,7 vs 10 and other such plays. Some are even worse!
 

ZenKinG

Well-Known Member
#9
LC Larry said:
False. High limit players still stand on A,7 vs 10 and other such plays. Some are even worse!
Now you're getting away from my original post. That's a different subject. Hi-limit players understand the game 'better', but doesn't mean perfectly. They also play 'a lot' and for much higher stakes to then realize and understand they're getting raped on the payout.
 
#10
This reminds me of a ploppie sitting at a 6:5 double deck game. He bet 300 and won, gets paid BJ 6:5 and stops the dealer he says " No wait the pay out is wrong." She says "oh this is a 6 to 5 table." I though, oh my god the ploppie is evolving right before my eyes. Nope. -_- Next hand he bets 300, gets another BJ, gets shorted again and keeps playing. ON the contrary I did see one guy leave a 6:5 table with his girlfriend complaining about the low pay out so that's a nice breath of fresh air I suppose.
 

KewlJ

Well-Known Member
#12
SoftSeventeen said:
Sadly, I agree.
I disagree. Blackjack was supposed to be dead back in the 60's after Thorpe's Beat The Dealer came out. Luckily for me (born a couple decades later) that supposed demise was premature. :)

6:5 blackjack was just a greed thing started by the Evil Empire. It has succeeded somewhat at the touristy location at low limit, but I don't seem much expansion in recent years. It is what it is.

The bigger recent threat was continuous shuffle machines (CSM), but I think that threat has also been contained. There is just too much cost (lease) and maintenance costs associated with these machines. They constantly are breaking down. I just don't see a lot of new CSM any more. If anything casinos are going to automatic shuffle machines (ASM), which don't eliminate card counting unless operators are cheating by using an illegal mode.

Yes, the newer model machines have the ability to sequence cards (with a code of password). Doing so is illegal. Is it possible that some casino might do so? Yes, just like it is possible some dealers deal seconds. It's illegal but possible. I personally have one single casino that I am uncomfortable with my results against their ASM, so I no longer play there. I am not accusing anything. Just my own response. Now you will hear some other conspiracy theories. :p

What I think the bigger threat right now is low limit games with live dealers disappearing. Being replaced by electronic video blackjack, either the 5 seat terminals with the pretty female dealers on the big video screen, or the stadium type blackjack that are popping up allowing for one dealer for upwards of 40-50 players.
 
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#13
We also have to remember that part of the allure of blackjack is that it is a game that can be beaten. Before Ed thorp released his findings the most popular game was craps by far. When Beat the Dealer was published Blackjack sky rocketed in popularity and casino profits went through the roof.
 
#14
KewlJ said:
I disagree. Blackjack was supposed to be dead back in the 60's after Thorpe's Beat The Dealer came out. Luckily for me (born a couple decades later) that supposed demise was premature. :)

6:5 blackjack was just a greed thing started by the Evil Empire. It has succeeded somewhat at the touristy location at low limit, but I don't seem much expansion in recent years. It is what it is.

The bigger recent threat was continuous shuffle machines (CSM), but I think that threat has also been contained. There is just too much cost (lease) and maintenance costs associated with these machines. They constantly are breaking down. I just don't see a lot of new CSM any more. If anything casinos are going to automatic shuffle machines (ASM), which don't eliminate card counting unless operators are cheating by using an illegal mode.

Yes, the newer model machines have the ability to sequence cards (with a code of password). Doing so is illegal. Is it possible that some casino might do so? Yes, just like it is possible some dealers deal seconds. It's illegal but possible. I personally have one single casino that I am uncomfortable with my results against their ASM, so I no longer play there. I am not accusing anything. Just my own response. Now you will hear some other conspiracy theories. :p

What I think the bigger threat right now is low limit games with live dealers disappearing. Being replaced by electronic video blackjack, either the 5 seat terminals with the pretty female dealers on the big video screen, or the stadium type blackjack that are popping up allowing for one dealer for upwards of 40-50 players.
There is absolutely no incentive to offer a fair/beatable (not my word) game of blackjack, when tourists in Vegas are willing to plop down, and blow a couple hundred bucks, and not flinch. In fact, MOST tourists hit the tables EXPECTING to lose...oh, but "have fun" at the same time.
Why in the world would any casino offer games with great rules, to satisfy the one group that claims (yes, my opinion) to be able to beat them at their own game? It's ridiculous.
6/5 is here to stay, and "even money" blackjacks are on their way. Remember, "a win is a win", and that's how most Lemmings play the game.
Idiots will play, regardless of rules. There is ZERO reason for a casino to offer a good game...unless the competition does. THAT might be the one thing that saves the good game: competition.
 

KewlJ

Well-Known Member
#15
SoftSeventeen said:
There is absolutely no incentive to offer a fair/beatable (not my word) game of blackjack, when tourists in Vegas are willing to plop down, and blow a couple hundred bucks, and not flinch. In fact, MOST tourists hit the tables EXPECTING to lose...oh, but "have fun" at the same time.
Why in the world would any casino offer games with great rules, to satisfy the one group that claims (yes, my opinion) to be able to beat them at their own game? It's ridiculous.
I agree completely. But that is limited to the touristy places....Vegas strip, Atlantic City, maybe a couple other locations. Places where the patron is going for 2-3 days (and nights), partying, getting drunk. They will play anything.

But in places where the players are locals, here in LV at the locals casinos and other places, like Pennsylvania, Ohio, Midwest states...all these other places, where the player is driving an hour or less and playing for 2-3 hours, they cannot get away with offering complete crap. Players will stop coming.

I think the really crap conditions 6:5 are limited to the really touristy places.....places that are really more about alcohol and partying than gambling. I could be wrong. We'll see.
 
#16
KewlJ said:
I agree completely. But that is limited to the touristy places....Vegas strip, Atlantic City, maybe a couple other locations. Places where the patron is going for 2-3 days (and nights), partying, getting drunk. They will play anything.

But in places where the players are locals, here in LV at the locals casinos and other places, like Pennsylvania, Ohio, Midwest states...all these other places, where the player is driving an hour or less and playing for 2-3 hours, they cannot get away with offering complete crap. Players will stop coming.

I think the really crap conditions 6:5 are limited to the really touristy places.....places that are really more about alcohol and partying than gambling. I could be wrong. We'll see.
I can agree with you on your points.
I live in north central Indiana. I play at Blue Chip (Boyd), in Michigan City, Indiana, and at Four Winds (Native American), in New Buffalo, Michigan.
I will say this: Blue Chip has a couple very good games. Four Winds is full of shit. "Free Bet" Blackjack, which includes the "22 is a push" (who in the world would play that??).
Blue Chip has a really good DD game...although, it's a $100 max bet game. Again, Four Winds is complete shit. Nice hotel, and great food though.
We come out Vegas to visit my best friend, but I don't play a lot when I come. I found a decent DD pitch game at Stratosphere that I liked, but when I cruised the Strip, all I could do was say "Yuck!".
The wife and I are coming to Vegas in a couple months. I'd like to find a good game to pay for my trip.
 

Ryemo

Well-Known Member
#17
Blue Chip had some decent 6D games if I remember correctly and Four Winds had a nice 6D S17 $25 game in HL. I got trespassed at both of those properties on my first visit sadly.
 

ZenKinG

Well-Known Member
#18
Like i said before. You will never see 6:5 in a hi limit room. EVER. The reasons to which I'm done explaining.

Then again, casinos are irrational braindead creatures so I really shouldn't put it past them.
 

JJP

Well-Known Member
#19
Now that the ban on sports betting has been lifted, legislation is being drawn up in Sacramento. From what I've heard, it may be offered at Indian casinos and/or racetracks in the state. Not sure why they couldn't put it in storefronts, like NYC OTB or in the UK, but they always have to have seemingly random zoning regulations. And of course the NBA, MLB and NFL are trying to stick their hand into the till. A 1% "integrity fee" would destroy this. Like blackjack, the margins in sports betting are small, not only for the best players but the operators themselves. A lay 120 to win 100 scenario will be doomed to fail.
 
#20
SoftSeventeen said:
There is absolutely no incentive to offer a fair/beatable (not my word) game of blackjack, when tourists in Vegas are willing to plop down, and blow a couple hundred bucks, and not flinch. Why in the world would any casino offer games with great rules, to satisfy the one group that claims (yes, my opinion) to be able to beat them at their own game? It's ridiculous.
you're dead wrong. casinos could have completely eliminated beatable BJ games if they wanted to but they didn't. how come? craps and baccarat are unbeatable games (excluding the rare exception of DI, cheating and edge sorting all of which is so rare that it's insignificant) and craps and baccarat are thriving. the tables are jammed. casinos deliberately have not made BJ an unbeatable game because they want the best of both worlds. they don't want to lose all the wannabee APs who lose tons of money due to undercapitalization, steaming and losing the count and making playing errors. IT'S NOT RIDICULOUS. they know exactly what they are doing. re the wannabees : "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing."
 
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