Where to find hand shuffles in usa?
- Thread starter Winneratlosing
- Start date
Nightshifter said:
Just get juiced in with someone at SG Gaming and learn how the ASM groups the cards to exploit counting/BS playing on demand... you'll know what to look for and when and when not to play... 
This is flat out ridiculous, LC Larry. These machines have the capability to group cards. It is fairly common knowledge that they have the ability to re-arrange cards back into sequential order. Knowing that, why would anybody think they don't have the capability to arrange cards in any particular order desired?
Once I had witnesses this occur for 100's of shuffles at not one but 2 different locations (now more), there was no question in my mind that these machines had this capability. The only question that remained for me was did machines have this "mode" built in, as they leave the factory or does it require an adjustment/re-program?
I initially thought they were pre-programed that way. Acquiring a machine and tinkering with it, has proven that assumption wrong. It does require a very minor reprogram that takes very little technical knowledge. It almost (<-) seems like the manufacturer made this adjustment as easy as possible, while still protecting themselves to where they can say "the machines don't come programed that way and we have no liability".
For those that argue that a positive card clump could be cut to the front of the shoe, making it advantageous for the player off the bat, yes this is possible. But unless a player (card counter) knows that, he can't really take advantage of it.
Look, I don't know what the exact "best" order is that would maximize the house advantage. But the casino industry or at least some in it probably does. With computers and simulation, it wouldn't be hard to figure out. Players use computers and simulations, why do you think the casino industry wouldn't as well? That is pretty naïve. Knowledge of the most advantageous order of cards and a shuffle machine with the capability to do so is a dangerous combination. Anyone thinking there won't be some in the casino industry that cross that line is pretty gullible.
I don't think it is very wide spread, as I have seen 4 locations I believe do or have done this and two no longer do. One removed this model machine and one no longer offers the game in question. And of the 2 locations that I spent a great deal of time observing and I am convinced have done this, at one only put the machine in this mode at certain times, and rather blatantly so with the pit guy punching in the code right before my eyes.
I think and hope chatter about this on forums, and some videos posted online (usually suggestive rather than definitive proof of anything) has been the reason this has been slow to grow. And even though, I now know how to play such a situation when I am able to identify it, I hope it remains an isolated occurrence. But if it becomes more widespread at some point this story WILL come out, when some gaming commission (probably Nevada as they usually lead the way) decides they can no longer look the other way.
Once I had witnesses this occur for 100's of shuffles at not one but 2 different locations (now more), there was no question in my mind that these machines had this capability. The only question that remained for me was did machines have this "mode" built in, as they leave the factory or does it require an adjustment/re-program?
I initially thought they were pre-programed that way. Acquiring a machine and tinkering with it, has proven that assumption wrong. It does require a very minor reprogram that takes very little technical knowledge. It almost (<-
) seems like the manufacturer made this adjustment as easy as possible, while still protecting themselves to where they can say "the machines don't come programed that way and we have no liability".For those that argue that a positive card clump could be cut to the front of the shoe, making it advantageous for the player off the bat, yes this is possible. But unless a player (card counter) knows that, he can't really take advantage of it.
Look, I don't know what the exact "best" order is that would maximize the house advantage. But the casino industry or at least some in it probably does. With computers and simulation, it wouldn't be hard to figure out. Players use computers and simulations, why do you think the casino industry wouldn't as well? That is pretty naïve. Knowledge of the most advantageous order of cards and a shuffle machine with the capability to do so is a dangerous combination. Anyone thinking there won't be some in the casino industry that cross that line is pretty gullible.
I don't think it is very wide spread, as I have seen 4 locations I believe do or have done this and two no longer do. One removed this model machine and one no longer offers the game in question. And of the 2 locations that I spent a great deal of time observing and I am convinced have done this, at one only put the machine in this mode at certain times, and rather blatantly so with the pit guy punching in the code right before my eyes.
I think and hope chatter about this on forums, and some videos posted online (usually suggestive rather than definitive proof of anything) has been the reason this has been slow to grow. And even though, I now know how to play such a situation when I am able to identify it, I hope it remains an isolated occurrence. But if it becomes more widespread at some point this story WILL come out, when some gaming commission (probably Nevada as they usually lead the way) decides they can no longer look the other way.
Probably it will take some legal action rather than some commission deciding to do the right thing. I don't have a lot of faith on gaming commission's deciding to do the right things.
Last August, when I identified a specific location this was occurring at, there was talk of legal action or an official complaint being filed with someone notable, like Michael Shackleford being the face of such a complaint. Mike showed an interest but was a bit slow to respond as per the location identified. There also was substantial blow back from some AP's at the time.
Should Mike or anyone else desire to pursue that again, I could point them towards a couple current locations and share some info I learned about the machines. But I have no interest in any involvement further than that, for obvious reasons.
Last August, when I identified a specific location this was occurring at, there was talk of legal action or an official complaint being filed with someone notable, like Michael Shackleford being the face of such a complaint. Mike showed an interest but was a bit slow to respond as per the location identified. There also was substantial blow back from some AP's at the time.
Should Mike or anyone else desire to pursue that again, I could point them towards a couple current locations and share some info I learned about the machines. But I have no interest in any involvement further than that, for obvious reasons.
[QUOTE="KewlJ, post: 500862, member:
Should Mike or anyone else desire to pursue that again, I could point them towards a couple current locations and share some info I learned about the machines. But I have no interest in any involvement further than that, for obvious reasons.[/QUOTE]
Would you be willing to tell us what info that you have learned How we can exploit these machines and ID these machines?
Should Mike or anyone else desire to pursue that again, I could point them towards a couple current locations and share some info I learned about the machines. But I have no interest in any involvement further than that, for obvious reasons.[/QUOTE]
Would you be willing to tell us what info that you have learned How we can exploit these machines and ID these machines?
I would listen to KewlJ... LC Larry sounds like a casino advocate! Even on a single deck game that's using shufflers ( even the dealer told me you have good point about shufflers on single deck games), you'll get very high positive counts (for a single deck) constantly when this is happening... or extreme negative depending on the cut... I've seen this time & time again... even on RFID tables... Harrah's in Southern California has such a system. The Asst. Shift Manager even told me that counters can't beat their games and was very confident about this statement unless they let them for good advertisement influencing others that you can win... or whoever... high roller that lost his shirt and they're letting him win some to give him confidence so he'll keep coming back and betting more... Who do they think they're kidding...? A lot of these counters or system players are our best customers...
You'll see clusters of cards in a single deck for like the first 2 or 3 rounds with 3 players that are just terrible combinations with no 10 valued cards when this happens. KewlJ is right... it doesn't happen all the time... it's on demand. ASM also told me the tables monitor the players bets... how much, how often... who's sitting where (based on a player card if they're using one) how much they won/loss etc. So... every time you sit down and give them (I don't) your player card, they slide in the card reader and punch in the amount of your buy in... there are sensors in the table and the chips are bugged. They don't like players slamming the tables because it can goof up the electronics Another reason that's obvious is for the side bets... like some 5 dollar ante which will give you a free spin for the jackpot upon getting a blackjack
Another situation in which I was talking to a man at coconut creek casino near Fort Lauderdale... He was fired (but still plays Hold'em there) because he was bragging about how they were killing players with their shufflers... He even told me it isn't wise to play here or at any of the seminole properties. They have extreme overhead at the hard rock and there's no way (if they kept they games 100% fair) they could keep the joint open if they didn't manipulate the gaming even more towards their favor. Doesn't happen all the time, but happens more often then not at the right times... usually when it's slow it isn't worth it on the low min tables ... like one or 2 players playing 10 a hand... so the games runs a more natural course that correlates with what KewlJ and myself deem as within bounds of a normal game.
Another interesting incident that happens on the Let it Ride table (single deck ASM) @ 3:00am... Royal Flush Jackpot for nearly 500000.00! The place was empty and she was pretty much the only player in the casino... Rumor is that the tribe brings in someone and they give that person the Royal Treatment Think of it... no witnesses really... you're in... you're out.. hello goodbye... the money goes back to the tribe in some circuitous manner and that's it. Why not? All I know is that normally the casino wants an event like this to happen when it's crowded so a lot of people can see it! Gives them hope and they play more... Sure they're are some legit winners here and there... I mean it's a casino... people gotta win sometimes right?
Nevada Gaming Commission can hardly be trusted with their record of affiliation with the mob/mormons or who ever else that is/was crooked... They just look the other way... now imagine the leeway tribal casinos have when it comes to altering their games via some means...?
Even on a single deck game that's using shufflers ( even the dealer told me you have good point about shufflers on single deck games), you'll get very high positive counts (for a single deck) constantly when this is happening... or extreme negative depending on the cut... I've seen this time & time again... even on RFID tables... Harrah's in Southern California has such a system. The Asst. Shift Manager even told me that counters can't beat their games and was very confident about this statement unless they let them for good advertisement influencing others that you can win... or whoever... high roller that lost his shirt and they're letting him win some to give him confidence so he'll keep coming back and betting more... Who do they think they're kidding...? A lot of these counters or system players are our best customers... You'll see clusters of cards in a single deck for like the first 2 or 3 rounds with 3 players that are just terrible combinations with no 10 valued cards when this happens. KewlJ is right... it doesn't happen all the time... it's on demand. ASM also told me the tables monitor the players bets... how much, how often... who's sitting where (based on a player card if they're using one) how much they won/loss etc. So... every time you sit down and give them (I don't) your player card, they slide in the card reader and punch in the amount of your buy in... there are sensors in the table and the chips are bugged. They don't like players slamming the tables because it can goof up the electronics
Another reason that's obvious is for the side bets... like some 5 dollar ante which will give you a free spin for the jackpot upon getting a blackjack Another situation in which I was talking to a man at coconut creek casino near Fort Lauderdale... He was fired (but still plays Hold'em there) because he was bragging about how they were killing players with their shufflers... He even told me it isn't wise to play here or at any of the seminole properties. They have extreme overhead at the hard rock and there's no way (if they kept they games 100% fair) they could keep the joint open if they didn't manipulate the gaming even more towards their favor. Doesn't happen all the time, but happens more often then not at the right times... usually when it's slow it isn't worth it on the low min tables ... like one or 2 players playing 10 a hand... so the games runs a more natural course that correlates with what KewlJ and myself deem as within bounds of a normal game.
Another interesting incident that happens on the Let it Ride table (single deck ASM) @ 3:00am... Royal Flush Jackpot for nearly 500000.00! The place was empty and she was pretty much the only player in the casino... Rumor is that the tribe brings in someone and they give that person the Royal Treatment
Think of it... no witnesses really... you're in... you're out.. hello goodbye... the money goes back to the tribe in some circuitous manner and that's it. Why not? All I know is that normally the casino wants an event like this to happen when it's crowded so a lot of people can see it! Gives them hope and they play more... Sure they're are some legit winners here and there... I mean it's a casino... people gotta win sometimes right?Nevada Gaming Commission can hardly be trusted with their record of affiliation with the mob/mormons or who ever else that is/was crooked... They just look the other way... now imagine the leeway tribal casinos have when it comes to altering their games via some means...?
Last edited:
I play with another AP occasionally. Recently he sent me a text after playing at The Creek and said "shufflers are fixed. They must have turned off beast mode." Apparently there are loads of reviews on Google complaining about "the shufflers". I don't buy into it though, after some experimentation of my own on these ASMS (also the reason I never mentioned them in my video about this tribe getting caught shorting shoes in '98). I am much more concerned about the frequent +12 and higher true counts we are seeing than anything else.