Backed off at the El Cortez

darco77

Well-Known Member
#1
I had my Back Off cherry popped yesterday at the El Cortez. I was playing DD, sitting at 3rd, and spreading 10 - 50. I'd also drop to 5 on negative counts, or sit out the hand altogether. It came as a surprise, because I had good rapport with the dealer and the other players, and didn't notice any hard looks from the pit. However, after playing for an hour or so and growing my $100 buy-in to about $350, I was approached by the pit boss.

He told me if I wanted to keep playing, I would have to bet flat. I played ignorant and said I didn't understand, and he repeated that I could no longer vary my bets if I wanted to continue. In a confused voice, I agreed to it, and he left. The other players were concerned, wanting to know what was going on. Needless to say, the festive attitude that had defined our table completely evaporated. Continuing to "not understand", I repeated what the PB had told me. The dealer said something to the fact that, "Oh, yeah, they do that sometimes." She seemed bummed, the other players were bummed, and I decided it was probably best to just leave. I said something like, "There are hundreds of tables in this town, I'll just go find another one. Good luck, everyone." I walked over to another table where my girlfriend was playing and told her we needed to go.

While I have never been backed off before, I did get some heat during a trip last month. I was playing the DD at Hooters heads up in the middle of the night, and after growing my bankroll rather quickly, the PB began instructing reshuffles and eventually an early dealer switch. The one common thing between these two sessions, besides winning, was that I was wearing my glasses both times. Now, I usually wear contact lenses, and wear my glasses only on occasion. And I know it sounds silly that something like glasses could contribute to PB heat. However, most people would agree that glasses do make people "look smarter", and they're generally going to be more suspicious of someone who "looks smart" than the guy in the ballcap swilling beer and high-fiving strangers on every big win (another persona I've used in the past with great success).

I'm curious to hear from others who have either been backed of at El Cortez, or noticed that they get more heat when wearing glasses. Again, I know this sounds silly, but I've had equally successful sessions in the same casinos and slid right under their radar sans glasses. Thanks.
 

Doofus

Well-Known Member
#2
darco77 said:
I had my Back Off cherry popped yesterday at the El Cortez. I was playing DD, sitting at 3rd, and spreading 10 - 50. I'd also drop to 5 on negative counts, or sit out the hand altogether. It came as a surprise, because I had good rapport with the dealer and the other players, and didn't notice any hard looks from the pit. However, after playing for an hour or so and growing my $100 buy-in to about $350, I was approached by the pit boss.
.

The more I think about this subject, the more I am convinced that I am not going to sit in any Vegas casino for more than 45 minutes from now on, unless it is a weekend and the full table and hubhub gives me some cover.
 

bj bob

Well-Known Member
#3
Welcome to AP land!

Getting backed off at the El Cortez is about as rare as being dealt back-to-back blackjacks, IOW no big deal there.
Advise for future reference, however, is not to drop that min. bet to $5 since you have, in essence created a 10:1 spread in the eye's mind.You may even last a lot longer if your spread was $10-$80. Although the spread may cost you a little EV, an ocassional wong out at strategic times will make up the difference.
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
#4
Was it the 4-12 shift? They seem to be the worse of the PBs.
No big deal getting flat betted there. go back in a few weeks and do it again.
 

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#5
darco77 said:
...didn't notice any hard looks from the pit.
Wait, how is that even possible? Even I noticed heat from my own personal pitboss, and I have virtually no radar whatsoever.

My last backof was on a doubledeck game, and one thing I was doing was once in a while 'cheating' and dropping to half my minimum bet... voila, instant 12x spread. I don't think it helped the situation... but I was due to get backed off at that joint anyway (it took months, not hours).
 

Mimosine

Well-Known Member
#6
i've successfully dodged heat at EC on 3 trips. I played probably 3 sessions per trip there. on about 1/2 of the trips i got heat, either due to bet spread or due to bigish wins. i countered either by IMMEDIATELY flat betting or if i had a big win under my belt i left immediately. in 2 memorable cases I was up 30 units in 30 minutes or less - and I was gone, out the door to my other favorite vegas joint. if i didn't have a win going i kept flat betting until the PB left. in all cases they did after 5-10 mins of flat betting. then back to business. these two strategies rely on recognizing when you either are getting heat, or might be getting heat. If you don't know what a pit boss looks like, or don't see them standing 5 feet from you hawking down on you, you're done for at the EC. Otherwise, i never had some pit boss "sweep in" from 100 yards away to boot me, it was always really obvious to me that I knew "what was up."
 

darco77

Well-Known Member
#8
Advise for future reference, however, is not to drop that min. bet to $5 since you have, in essence created a 10:1 spread in the eye's mind.You may even last a lot longer if your spread was $10-$80.
This was actually the first time I've employed this tactic. Usually I would have gone 10-70 or 10-80, but I found this in a manual I picked up recently at a Blackjack Institute seminar (MIT Mike). It says to bet half your unit if -3 <= TC <= 1, and to wong out on TC <= -4. I'm guessing this was more feasible 10 years ago, when they were still playing. Of course, all these stories I hear about EC make me think it could still work elsewhere.

If you don't know what a pit boss looks like, or don't see them standing 5 feet from you hawking down on you, you're done for at the EC.
Oh, I saw him the entire time. He never hovered over me though. Sure, he came by a few times, but I didn't alter my play and he moved on to other duties. Conversely, I remember a short session I had there about a year ago where I was getting a very hard and nasty stare from the PB. Like you said, he was hawking down on me from about 5 feet away. I had won big and won early, so I just got out before he verbally confronted me.

Was it the 4-12 shift? They seem to be the worse of the PBs.
This was the day shift, about 3pm. Saturday night I played there from about 12am - 2am. I got no heat, but it was busy and I wasn't doubling my spread via the half-unit bet.

No big deal getting flat betted there. go back in a few weeks and do it again.
That's what I like to hear! I'll see them again in March. :cool2:
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#9
The Spread was suicidal.

You did not spread 5 - 1 It was clearly 10 - 1

You cannot casually ignore even a few nickel bets, any more than you can ignore it if you went to $75 just once or twice.

At a DD game this level of aggression will get you tossed from anywhere that you play thus for over an hour.

Learn from this.

Besides, that is a paranoid burn joint you attacked.
A few hundred to them is like a few thousand on the strip.
 

Knox

Well-Known Member
#10
I once spread $5 to 2 x $75 on DD (e.g. 1-30 units) at EC for at least a couple of hours with no heat. I guess maybe the fact that I was LOSING MY ASS factored into the equation. Funny how the conditions are so great there, but I have the worst luck! Look for the smiling, relatively attractive Asian pit boss on the middle bit. Avoid the young male Asian PB same pit.
 

Doofus

Well-Known Member
#11
I won $350 here spreading 1-5 recently, and the Asian pit boss's eyes were like laser beams, burning into the back of my neck. Or at least that's what my tablemate told me, as she was standing in the pit directly behind me. Heh heh heh....
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
#12
I played there all day without incident. I know many of you have warned me about playing for hours, for a variety of reasons, but the pen was good and the company pleasant, so I couldn't bring myself to leave. I never violated the 1 to 5 spread, and I always use a lot of cover, oppositional betting and other. After I quit, I played some nickel VP, then returned to a DD table. For the first time all day they brought in a speed demon, her name was Star. I normally won't play tired with a fast dealer, but I had decided beforehand to relax and play BS only, so the speed was no problem. I played half an hour at breakneck speed, and broke dead even

I guess that's why I'm not a professional--sometimes I just don't want to put up with the hassle and will flat bet using BS only or count but only raise my bet at peak moments. Consequently, it's more fun than serious gaming at these times. But you won't catch me playing laid back on anything above $5, that's for sure. I know I lack discipline at times, but I'm working on it.

Some have accused me of being a compulsive gambler in the past here on the forum. You know, I think they may be right. When I'm tired, I might do anything. That's compulsive behavior. But fortunately, when I'm rested I don't have the slightest desire to "gamble." The playing BS only described above was something I did when I was tired. At least I'm learning not to attempt high limits when I'm tired anymore. It has cost me dearly when I have. That's at least some progress.
 

Doofus

Well-Known Member
#13
aslan said:
Some have accused me of being a compulsive gambler in the past here on the forum. You know, I think they may be right. When I'm tired, I might do anything. That's compulsive behavior.

Have you ever done anything at a table recklessly, without regard for your strategy or the consequences? There's a big difference between throwing your entire day's bankroll out on the table because you're "feeling it" and hopping over to the high limit table to play $100 units. I've done the latter and lost my ass, but I don't think it was compulsive behavior.
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
#15
Doofus said:
Have you ever done anything at a table recklessly, without regard for your strategy or the consequences? There's a big difference between throwing your entire day's bankroll out on the table because you're "feeling it" and hopping over to the high limit table to play $100 units. I've done the latter and lost my ass, but I don't think it was compulsive behavior.
Yes and yes. I've lost my shirt trying to play when I was too tired and even when they brought in a formula one dealer with blinding speed I continued to grit my teeth and try to beat them at their own game. One hundred lashes for that one! Also, sometimes in the past I would lose at a lower limit table, say $10, due solely to negative variance, but would then take the hear and move to a higher limit table to try to recoup my losses. Now that's all right IF IF IF IF IF you can afford the higher limit, but if your BR is limited it's plain suicide without a note. One hundred lashes for that one! Now times when I upped the limit and had the cash to back it, I generally came out all right and usually made a handsome profit over and above previous losses, but probably never when I couldn't afford the higher limit. It's like an unwritten law of the universe--live within your means or suffer the inevitable consequences. Vegas is chock full of people once well off but now victims of this illogical and insatiable need to beat the odds and be the one special person who overcame. Fairy tale. The fix is in. Mathmatics is the guide. There is no other way, at least not under the control of man.
 
#16
Doofus said:
Have you ever done anything at a table recklessly, without regard for your strategy or the consequences? There's a big difference between throwing your entire day's bankroll out on the table because you're "feeling it" and hopping over to the high limit table to play $100 units. I've done the latter and lost my ass, but I don't think it was compulsive behavior.

They all have done it they just won't admit to it. They is no such thing as a perfect gambler (AP). They all have STEAMED ! Only online on a chat board will you find the perfect gambler. You can go to the casino and then tell me how many you see. Not many. The must be all online talking the perfect game.
 

Mimosine

Well-Known Member
#17
InPlay said:
They all have done it they just won't admit to it. They is no such thing as a perfect gambler (AP). They all have STEAMED ! Only online on a chat board will you find the perfect gambler. You can go to the casino and then tell me how many you see. Not many. The must be all online talking the perfect game.
I have never steamed. never. Before I ever stepped foot in a casino I was in my late 20s, had read A LOT of material about BJ and was well on my way to counting. steaming is something that i've never done. i'm not a hothead and not everyone on here is either. i'm not saying you are, but you should be careful before you think that everyone is like you or has had the same experience that you have.
 

moo321

Well-Known Member
#18
Mimosine said:
I have never steamed. never. Before I ever stepped foot in a casino I was in my late 20s, had read A LOT of material about BJ and was well on my way to counting. steaming is something that i've never done. i'm not a hothead and not everyone on here is either. i'm not saying you are, but you should be careful before you think that everyone is like you or has had the same experience that you have.
I think I believe you, but you are a rarity. I've definitely steamed, although I've never steamed seriously in a poker game, or in a live blackjack game. Used to steam all the time clearing casino bonuses, but that had no effect on EV. In fact, it technically increased EV.
 

Mimosine

Well-Known Member
#19
moo321 said:
I think I believe you, but you are a rarity.
honestly i haven't it. I've made mistakes in the heat of the moment, i've over bet my bankroll in a few instances, only to the tune of 10-15%, but before i stepped foot in a casino i was reading BJBBII, KO blackjack, etc, and i was on here lurking and posting, and I knew that my pathetic $700 BR would disappear into dust if I screwed around at all.

i've gotten plenty emotional in games before, currently i'm getting a lot better about this, rationalizing everything in the context of math helps, and a larger, replenishable, more shock absorbent BR doesn't hurt either.

i don't have enough money to my name to piss it away in a casino, i've always kept that in the forefront of my mind.
 
#20
People steam all the time they just want to forget it or can't remember it. It's called selective memory. It's happen to all of us. Recalling the good times and blocking out the bad times. It's no big thing we are all human. The biggest steamers were sports bettors if they were a stuck come Monday their bet was whatever they owed the book. Seen it from the BEST in one form of gambling or another. It's the nature of the BEAST ! (GAMBLING) :laugh:
 
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