Another look at playing rated/using players card

#1
Most pros who have played a long time advise not using players cards but I think that perhaps another look is needed.

I have played rated now for 4 years, in MS, Las Vegas, PA and the Midwest. At times, I have attempted to play anonymously but found that if there is heat, the easiest way to dissipate it is to hand over your players card. Believe me, the heat is 10 times greater for an anonymous player, especially at Green Chip minimum games.

I think, more and more often, the pit ignores you, puts in the amount you won or lost at the end of your session and leaves the decision-making for higher ups to review. If you are playing anonymously, they call surveillance to evaluate whether to back you off.

Now, whether it's lifetime earnings, or last year's play or what can get you in trouble is unknown. In the meantime, I get my comps, free rooms, table play coupons and meals.

One pit guy logging me in told me today that I was up for the year.

Maybe it's my max bet ($150), maybe it is that I only win 60% of my sessions, maybe it's the short sessions, maybe it's the 1-6 spread, maybe it's that I never leave a session up more than $1500 (usually under $1k) but so far, no major trouble.

In the meantime, the difference in heat is incredible. I play anonymously and the pit is at the table or glancing at my chip stack often, or obviously assessing me. I play with card, they see most likely my last few sessions, when I was last at their casino and that I did not take them for huge amounts and they go away.
 

Ryemo

Well-Known Member
#2
Just play rated Zee. That’s what you want to hear, right? Now for the love of God, move onto a new topic; preferably one you haven’t started 53 other times across multiple different forums.
 
#3
Ryemo, I constantly read about newbies playing red chips worrying about being backed off, being paranoid. Maybe in their early training period, they are better off having the heat off their back, playing rated, picking up some comps. Heat dissipates with a players card.

Perhaps down the road in starting to play greens or large spreads, they can leave their players cards at home. I am quite convinced that unless they string up a series of consecutive large wins, most rated players are safe with the exception of obvious large spreads or sitting at a table wonging in and out.
 

KewlJ

Well-Known Member
#4
ZeeBabar said:
Perhaps down the road in starting to play greens or large spreads, they can leave their players cards at home.
This statement contradicts your opening post, does it not? o_O

I don't know what you are trying to do here? It's like Ryemo says, you ask a question or for opinions, but if you don't like the answer or opinion, you come back again, with the same topic, looking for an answer or opinion that you do like, that concurs with your opinion.

My experience is that playing rated in vegas at mid level stakes, green to mid black, is detrimental to longevity compared to playing unrated. AND it is not even like you are losing out on anything, because they give next to nothing for blackjack play. :rolleyes: Now that is just my opinion, my experience and the conclusion is based on my top priority of longevity. If you, or anyone else has had different experiences and reached a different conclusion, then do what works for you. Why does it seem like you need some sort of confirmation like this? o_O

Now of course most of my comments, opinions, experiences pertain to vegas, where most o my play takes place. I play a little in Pa, and very little in the Midwest, but not enough that I would even suggest what might or might not be beneficial.

And one other thing. If you think playing as a 'refusal' creates an environment or suspicion or where the pit person is wary of you, change the dynamic, change the perception, throw it back on them. If a pit person, asks a second time or shows any kind of aggression, I will say something like "I never get anything for my play here anyway except grief from my spouse for playing here in the first place". Be a little aggressive in your 'bad mouthing' of that casinos and their rewards/comps. The pit knows it's true, so has no defense and they don't want you to continue to bad mouth the establishment in front of other players, so they will often back off and leave you alone. Be creative. Everything isn't written in stone. There is no blueprint for how everyone should do things. Find what works for you.
 
#5
Kewlj, we a share our experiences and readers do whatever they chose. Why do you folks who might not agree feel the need to denigrate me? Why assume that every forum member has been on this forum forever, remember what previous posts were from me?

For folks like me, visiting Las Vegas sporadically, the benefits of playing rated (assuming your play is not brazen) are

1. Free room and some dining credit
2. Significantly less heat.

I took up forum advice and attempted playing anonymously and found I was better off playing rated. Short sessions, limited spread, and it's fine to play rated. For example, on a recent 3 day visit, I won at 3 casinos each of two different chains, played some 12 sessions, won 10 of them and came home up $3000+ and the following weeks, I got room comp offers from casinos of both chains.

For you, living in Las Vegas, the comps may be minimal but for me, 3 free nights on my next visit is significant.
 

KewlJ

Well-Known Member
#6
ZeeBabar said:
Why do you folks who might not agree feel the need to denigrate me?
ZeeBabar, I am NOT trying to denigrate you. If you feel I have done that I apologize. I do make some comments, (shoebox comments as an example) in fun. I think you can handle some humor can't you? ;)

As far as the post above, where did I denigrate you? :confused: I said different players have different experiences and what works for one might be very different for another. You (and everyone) should find what works for you. And if it is different than my experiences and what works for me, great!

I like to share my experiences and thoughts, conclusions and opinions in the hopes that others may find something useful. I am not saying my way is the best way, just what has worked for me (at least so far). I may evolve on something by tomorrow. ;)

And, I think I have share more of my experiences in detail (at times more detail than I should), with reasons why I have reached some of the conclusions that I have, sort of directed at you that any other member of this community in my time here. Probably because some others (no names) give you such a hard time. So I am sorry you feel like I am in the group out to belittle you. I am really not.
 
#7
I really dont. I have learned from you and respect you. I don't believe I have made a similar post on this forum about playing rated or using a players card so I was upset at you agreeing with Ryemo (another one I respect) electing to make a thread about me.

My main point was that I believe casinos, especially chain ones, leave those playing with players cards alone, seem content to simply log in play. I also think that many newbies, intermediate and recreational players worry about back offs, let heat affect play and more. My advice was to just play rated. The decrease in heat is almost instantaneous.
 

ZenKinG

Well-Known Member
#8
ZeeBabar said:
I really dont. I have learned from you and respect you. I don't believe I have made a similar post on this forum about playing rated or using a players card so I was upset at you agreeing with Ryemo (another one I respect) electing to make a thread about me.

My main point was that I believe casinos, especially chain ones, leave those playing with players cards alone, seem content to simply log in play. I also think that many newbies, intermediate and recreational players worry about back offs, let heat affect play and more. My advice was to just play rated. The decrease in heat is almost instantaneous.
There's no heat until there is.
 

hitthat16

Active Member
#9
There is no heat until there is is one of the truest statements pertaining to this game. I lost a chain of stores nearly a year ago after my lifetime win triggered them to ban me.

In the years and months prior I played rated and they severely overcommped me. Free rooms, food, and enough comp dollars to stock my bar at home many times over. I thought they were ignorant and saw me as a good customer. Then one evening they mercilessly pulled the plug, acting like i had sold their first born child into slavery. I was escorted to the door (after first being threatened with a backrooming) and told to never come back. My player card account was purged of all offers and remaining comp dollars and stuck with a note to call security if i ever showed up once more.

There is no heat until there is.
 

KewlJ

Well-Known Member
#11
ZenKinG said:
There's no heat until there is.
One of your better posts, ZenKinG. ;)

I'll share an experience of mine, not all that different from hitthat16's experience. After moving to vegas, one of the casinos in my rotation, that I played heavily was a casino on Las vegas blvd, but far south of the strip, below even Southpoint. :rolleyes: I loved this one letter named place, including the buffet. Probably my favorite place, so I made the mistake of playing it more frequently than I should have.

For several years, not problems, despite that I over played. The pit and dealers all seemed to not only tolerate me, but most liked me. One Irish pit guy in particular was extremely friendly and nice.

And then one day out of the blue, no big wins, no heat, everything turned on a dime. Before my backoff, before anyone had even said anything to me, I felt the chill, the unfriendliness. And of course I was backed off as soon as I started to play.

That is when I bean to repeat the "there is no heat, until there is" saying that I had heard others experienced players state. o_O

Now anyone who has different experiences, that is fine. But don't dismiss what other experienced players say, just because your experiences may not be similar...YET! I think Zee does this to some extent. He has had no issues playing rated, so doesn't see the danger looming that other experienced players have met.

How about this little story: Construction worker falls from the 12 floor of a building he is working on. As he falls past the 6th floor a co-worker yells out "How's it going Joe?" Joe replies "so far so good". :rolleyes: I think that is a little bit of what Zee is experiencing. So far so good. o_O But likely problems ahead. We know this because others have experienced those problems. BUT, maybe he and "joe" will manage to escape that not so good ending that looks likely. ;)
 
#12
KewlJ said:
One of your better posts, ZenKinG. ;)

I'll share an experience of mine, not all that different from hitthat16's experience. After moving to vegas, one of the casinos in my rotation, that I played heavily was a casino on Las vegas blvd, but far south of the strip, below even Southpoint. :rolleyes: I loved this one letter named place, including the buffet. Probably my favorite place, so I made the mistake of playing it more frequently than I should have.

For several years, not problems, despite that I over played. The pit and dealers all seemed to not only tolerate me, but most liked me. One Irish pit guy in particular was extremely friendly and nice.

And then one day out of the blue, no big wins, no heat, everything turned on a dime. Before my backoff, before anyone had even said anything to me, I felt the chill, the unfriendliness. And of course I was backed off as soon as I started to play.

That is when I bean to repeat the "there is no heat, until there is" saying that I had heard others experienced players state. o_O

Now anyone who has different experiences, that is fine. But don't dismiss what other experienced players say, just because your experiences may not be similar...YET! I think Zee does this to some extent. He has had no issues playing rated, so doesn't see the danger looming that other experienced players have met.

How about this little story: Construction worker falls from the 12 floor of a building he is working on. As he falls past the 6th floor a co-worker yells out "How's it going Joe?" Joe replies "so far so good". :rolleyes: I think that is a little bit of what Zee is experiencing. So far so good. o_O But likely problems ahead. We know this because others have experienced those problems. BUT, maybe he and "joe" will manage to escape that not so good ending that looks likely. ;)
Probably correct, Kewlj. I think I play with card cause of the ease of doing so. Saying no, refusing when they urge you, fear of being backed off, palpable heat, lack of confidence in cover plays, comfort with DD games, switching in and out of one hand to 2 hands and more.

It's as if, I have to learn a while new system and strategy if I am to play anonymously. Each time I visit Lax Vegas or other places, I now worry that they know I have a card. My playing with card also included joking and having fun with pit and dealers, of being chatty. So now, they just might know that I have a card.

How do I switch to anonymous play?
 

LC Larry

Well-Known Member
#13
ZeeBabar said:
Probably correct, Kewlj. I think I play with card cause of the ease of doing so. Saying no, refusing when they urge you, fear of being backed off, palpable heat, lack of confidence in cover plays, comfort with DD games, switching in and out of one hand to 2 hands and more.

It's as if, I have to learn a while new system and strategy if I am to play anonymously. Each time I visit Lax Vegas or other places, I now worry that they know I have a card. My playing with card also included joking and having fun with pit and dealers, of being chatty. So now, they just might know that I have a card.

How do I switch to anonymous play?
As Nancy Reagan famously once said..."Just say NO!!"

Ask yourself this:

Would I rather be databased with or without a name attached to my face?

Trust me and the others here and at the other forum, you're playing with fire and you WILL get burned!
 

21forme

Well-Known Member
#14
ZeeBabar said:
How do I switch to anonymous play?
Very simple. When they ask, simply say you don't have a card. And don't oversell it. Don't offer unsolicited rationalizations why you don't want to be rated. You also have the advantage of being able to play the "no speak English" card. Put on a heavy accent and pretend you don't understand. They will give up out of frustration if they are pushing you.

Of course, this will only work in places you don't frequent. Vegas shouldn't be a problem because so many people from so many places play there. In your local places, it's too late to switch to unrated.

LC Larry said:
As Nancy Reagan famously once said..."Just say NO!!"

Ask yourself this:

Would I rather be databased with or without a name attached to my face?

Trust me and the others here and at the other forum, you're playing with fire and you WILL get burned!
Bingo!
 

Ryemo

Well-Known Member
#15
ZeeBabar said:
I think I play with card cause of the ease of doing so. Saying no, refusing when they urge you, fear of being backed off, palpable heat, lack of confidence in cover plays, comfort with DD games, switching in and out of one hand to 2 hands and more.
A lot of this “heat” is also a figment of your imagination. There are so many places you can play unrated with no issues. One of your old stomping grounds was one of them. Only reason I finally got made there was because I CTR’d. They confronted me the next day after experiencing some huge swings.

Another example: I just finished up a trip where I played some decent double deck game. I was playing 2 hands up to table max AND splitting 10’s. No back off. Got a little bit of heat a couple times, but defused it with a couple short dummy sessions. Any way, when they asked why I play with no card, I just said my wife doesn’t approve. Case closed. Another note: I should have CTRd that day. But because I played unrated, my buy-ins were not accurately tracked. I finished the trip a winner with huge swings. So I’m just saying that playing unrated because it’s “easy” is a bullshit excuse. The only thing easy about it is when the shift manager searches for your name in the database.
 
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Ryemo

Well-Known Member
#16
And let me add one more thing. I know a super low stakes player who got entered into OSN for ... wait for it... for a 1 to 3 spread in green chips. I’m not kidding! AND... here’s the kicker; it’s a casino just on the other side of the state for you, Zee. You’ve been there. And that Casino belongs to a chain that you currently frequent. That’s probably one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard, but it’s true. So even your 1 to 5 spread is not immune to potential database threats!
 
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KewlJ

Well-Known Member
#17
There is another possibility that I have been reluctant to mention, because I didn't want to seem like I was picking on "anyone". :rolleyes: There is an evaluation process at almost all casinos, except those notorious sweaty few that just backoff/bar anyone spreading even a little bit, whether they are spreading with the count or not. Everyone else has an evaluation process. Some initiated from the pit, some initiated from above.

So, it is not only possible, but likely, that some players are evaluated and the casino decides at this time, they are not a threat and no action need be taken. This can occur when the casino thinks the player is making enough mistakes to offset or minimize any win, or maybe a small bet spread falls in their tolerance range. Or it could even be that they decide the player is playing a winning game, but for whatever reason, think he is not bankrolled properly and just normal variance will 'get' him.

Now again, I am not suggesting this of anyone in particular, just saying why one player may have different experiences than others. And of course those conclusions can and will change as time goes on. A casino may initially decide someone is not playing a winning game or only playing a marginally winning game and allow them to play, and later make a different determination.

Here is my opinion on the subject in very general terms, but of course influenced by my situation of majority of my play in the desert:

1.) Only red chip players should play rated. At that level, you should be able to play at least for a while, with little cover or without the need to adopt a hit-and-run strategy. At the low limit levels, your return is so minimal, you can use any added Ev the casino gives you in terms of comps/offers, especially if you can score some free bet or match play offers to bump up your ev.

2.) but (generally) once a player moves up to green to black stakes, especially mid-black max bet level, but even lower green to black, things begin to change. If you play a place regularly, they will begin to notice you and likely at some point evaluate you. And when that happens, you DON'T want them to already have your name and identity. Not for just a little bit of value from comps/offers. :rolleyes: Plus, this is the level that you have to start thinking about adopting a shorter session, hit-and-run strategy, if you want to achieve any kind of longevity. And the short session, hit-and-run strategy works against getting any kind of decent offers/comps, because you just aren't at one table long enough....plus most places already give squat for table play. Anyone playing rated at this point really needs to think about what they are giving up (risk) for the little reward (comps/offers) that they are getting. "Chasing pennies!"

3.) Everything said in #2, is multiplied by 10 when you start getting to even higher stakes....in my opinion.

The bottom line is that in anything above low limit, the casinos (generally) want to know who you are and believe me, it is not so they can reward your play. ;)
 
#18
If comps are that important to you, then pick a casino to exploit for comps and comps only. Play a break even game with a polite spread there and use that place for rooms and food. All other places i would play unrated.
 

21forme

Well-Known Member
#19
KewlJ said:
some players are evaluated and the casino decides at this time, they are not a threat
Since you brought it up, I'll say it and won't pull punches:
Based on Zee's comments and questions, if I owned a casino, I'd welcome him. If he's being honest about his shoebox swelling over the last couple of years, it's more likely positive variance than skill.

KewlJ said:
Only red chip players should play rated.
I strongly disagree here. As comps are minimal for table games nowadays, especially for red chippers, why risk your name for a negligible return?
 
#20
Okay, I get it!

In another post, I explain the trouble I ran into. Bottomline, outside of my regular place and one chain for comps, I will play anonymous. See how it goes.
 
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