Casino Procedures - Fill, Count and Drop Box Q's

toddler

Well-Known Member
#1
I have some questions on casino procedures and was hoping some of you may be able to respond. Attempting to fill in the blanks on some research.

1) What metrics are used to determine if a fill is required?
2) Who determines whether a fill is required?
3) How many times a shift is a chip inventory performed? When and by whom?
4) When are drop boxes usually pulled?
5) How long after the drop box is pulled is it counted?
6) Once a drop box is counted, where is the information sent?
7) When a table count is performed, from a cursory glance, what would make the pit believe the table is holding well? What would raise a flag?

toddler
 
#2
hold

"7) When a table count is performed, from a cursory glance, what would make the pit believe the table is holding well? What would raise a flag?"

Being the variance of the game is so high, I don't believe any kind of observation between fills can give a meaningful assessment of a table's hold. A lucky ploppy will empty out a tray quicker than a good counter, and on any given night there are a lot more lucky ploppies than good counters in the house. Management has to realize this, but who knows if the PC's do?
 
#3
Is a Fill Required?

Hallo Toddler,

Excellent Questions! I have dealt with many different procedures in my tenure as a casino employee. So my answers here may not apply to the properties you play at. I had a supervisor once tell me, "Procedures are written on paper rather than in stone so that they can be changed if needed." Also, our procedures are separate from Internal Controls. Some of your questions apply to that vein. I will not be able to answer them. Here are some examples that I have seen, and dealt with.

1.) What metrics are used to determine if a fill is required?

Some questions I view about the Players when checking if a fill is needed.
A.) What is their level of tipping? Dealer tokes are removed from the table immediately. This can create the need for a fill. Also, at the property you are playing at are dealer tokes colored up or matched chip for chip and removed.
B.) Who are the players at the table? In the Best Posts Section Abraham de Moivre posted an excellent "Know the Enemy" Post. I often tell my Floor Personnel and Dealers, "The House doesn't lose a dollar until it leaves the Casino." Most players have a certain stop level, win or lose. I try to know what each player's parameters are. When I look across the felt I need to know if the chips in front of the players are going to return to the tray or leave the table. Again that is different than cashed out. At any rate I realize that chips on the table are potential chips in the tray.
C.) Do the Players have superstitions about coloring up? Or are they more likely to cash out any Black/Green or Purple chips etc.

Some other metrics
A.) Is it a Saturday night?
B.) How busy are we likely to get later? I use the numbers from last year/month/week to help "Budget" this.
C.) Will Security have time to easily get me a fill now or is Sid just headed for his Break? Fills must obviously be coordinated with Multiple Security Personnel.
D.) Is my Pit closing soon? Does the property you are at close tables/Pits? How do they close them? By calling a last shoe for example or by no longer allowing "new" players at the table.
E.) Is it coming up on the time for a "Pit Chip Inventory?"

Fills are part of our Daily preparation procedures. There is also a rarely used procedure to "Credit" chips back to "Casino Inventory" if a table becomes over-filled with chips to the point that it affects asset security.

I am going to try to answer your Questions in separate posts to avoid the inevitable length. ;O)

Sincerely

OnePitCritter
 
#4
Who Determins if a fill is needed?

Hallo Again,

2.) Who determines whether a fill is required?

The need for a fill is determined by and prepared by the Floor Personnel, then authorized by the Pit. Ordering the fill procedures are Internal Control. I have seen properties where it seems to be primarily determined by the Dealer and prepared by their Floor. I try to avoid having Dealers screaming across the Pit "I NEED A FILL!" If this happens at your favorite property I always wonder what the Floor Personnel & Pit Critter are doing instead of their job? ;O)

Still Sincerely

OnePitCritter
 
#5
How Often is Inventory Done?

Toddler Wrote:

3.) How many times a shift is a chip inventory performed? When and by whom?

This varies widely from one property to another. The minimum I have experienced is once per day of play at open and close of each Pit. The maximum I have been involved with involves a full table inventory down to Silver every ½ hour. I never did figure out what the perceived advantage was to that. I can say it SUCKED! I did get very good at very quickly inventorying chips.

Most properties I believe (This is just from my experience) do a general inventory minimum between shifts. As well as a full breakdown at open and close of the Pit.

By whom? The Pit Personnel do the general inventory. The full breakdown again involves Internal Controls. ;O)

It is also possible that your property's PitCritters use a computer program to update on a regular basis the current Pit assets. The Pit may be entering Drop as well as Table Chip Inventory on a regular basis to track a table's current % of hold.

Also a full Casino Chip inventory is done at least once per year much like Walmart or Kmart inventories merchandise etc.

Still Just,

Sincerely,

OnePitCritter
 
#6
When are Drop Boxes Pulled?

I am sorry but I cannot answer this.

I hope you can understand why. Obviously one of the most "dangerous" times for Casino Assets is in transit. I am curious as to why you would want to Know?

I can tell you there are many different types of Drop boxes. A very nice style involves 3 seperate slots to help acurately track drop by shift or dealer or denomination for example.

There are also plastic "disposable boxes" with some very nice Ink Exploders. Much like you see on Leather clothes tags at your local full service Dept. Store.

Sincerly

OnePitCritter

P.S. These are just some of the more well known drop box securties. There are obviously many others. :O)
 
#7
How long after the Drop Box is pulled is it counted?

Sorry again,

I cannot answer this. Again I wonder why you ask?

With counterfiet money etc...

Sincerly

OnePitCritter
 
#8
Once counted where is the info sent?

Toddler wrote:

Once a drop box is counted, where is the information sent?

Back to something I feel I can answer, Whew. ;O)

The daily information goes to at least the Casino Manager, The Table Games Manager, Primary PitCritters, Accounting. It may also go to Security, Audit personnel, different levels of Admin, and Marketing depending on what they are working on at the moment. For example, are they trying to track a new game type? Or develop a promotion. Or track a particular player's activity for some reason. Not always for AP/CC tracking, perhaps for money laundering as one example.

Again, 8O)

Sincerely,

OnePitCritter
 

toddler

Well-Known Member
#10
Ah yes, but...

... doesn't the table card or lamer cup offer the pit personnel an idea of how much has been dropped? Looking only at the float is not the only indication. Correct?
 

toddler

Well-Known Member
#11
Right or left handed dealers

OPC,

Does the dealer being right or left handed have anything to do with how a fill is determined? Knowing that the large demon chips are centralized, then decreasing to outer silver, does a decrease in one side of the float, normally where a dealer would make payouts, have an affect? Is this a factor?

Excellent responses by the way.

toddler
 

toddler

Well-Known Member
#12
Shift change

OPC,

Is the chip inventory done at the end of the shift? I believe that to be the case. Are the chips in front of the players counted? I believe that may change property to property. I heard some joints do count the player chips to make their shift "look" better.

How long does it take for each table and how many people are involved? I have seen it take a couple minutes using three people.

toddler
 

toddler

Well-Known Member
#13
Why I want to know

Simple. Surveillance. Don't they give this process high priority? Just looking for holes in surveillance interest on the tables. For instance, if a pit has three tables with guys chunking heavy green to black, and all of a sudden it time for a drop box change, well what does surveillance do?

I'm not interested in specific times, just how many times a shift. If it's once, that's all I need to know. And, do they exchange all tables in a specific pit?

What, you think I'm trying to rob a place? Bahahahahhaahhaaaaaa.

toddler
 
#14
Yes and a Lamer Cup ? ;O)

Hallo Toddler,

Correct.

Quickly here are some different procedures to track drop...

1) Dealers must call out and have all drops authorised by Floor Personnel. The Floor is primarily checking to see that the chips match the denomination of buy-in.

2) At this time the Floor may write down the drop on table card. Or at some properties they use a table "Clicker" to count the # of twenties/Hundreds/whatever.

3) Dealers may track the drop by using an abacus system in their tray to track drop. For those of you who have never seen this. I swear I didn't get the Idea from AutoMonkey.;O)

Yes, the Table Card can give an Idea of not only how much but also if used correctly who dropped how much. I am sorry I do not know the term "Lamer Cup?"
What is it?

Sincerly,

OnePitCritter
 

toddler

Well-Known Member
#15
Nope

Not funny money. Again, I'm not attempting to do anything illegal. That's not my schtick. Just trying to understand how casinos work internally, where information flows, how fast, that sort of thing.

In this case, I'm attempting to determine how long it is before finance/accounting/whoever determines there was a hold % issue with a certain pit, perhaps on a specific table. 8 hours, 24 hours???

toddler
 

toddler

Well-Known Member
#16
Lamer Cup

This could be a dated procedure. I'm told that pits used to use a small cup where small clear chips were added signifying how much was dropped. All the supe had to do was check the cup to determine the drop amount, kind of like marker chips. I've seen lamer chips used to hold spots for players while they take breaks. It's placed on their betting square.

toddler
 
#17
It still won't detect advantage play

Because there's only going to be a few thousand hands max between fills, on a game with No = 20,000. So if you were to rate the players by how much damage they're doing to the hold at one sitting, you're not significantly more likely to bar an AP than a ploppy who's having a great night. But it still might draw attention to the table which nobody wants, so I switch tables if it looks like I'm emptying the tray.
 
#18
Left or Right Handed dealer procedures

Making me think on my evening off Toddler, ;O)

Thank you by the way!

It is a Right-Handed world. Different properties again different procedures.

Some that I have "Dealt" with personaly. (All of these are from Dealer's Perspective)

1) The Dealer is only allowed to use his right hand in the tray and can only pay out chips from the right side of the tray.

In case #1 the dealers should be transfering chips to the right (Dealer's perspective) to only pay out with the chips on the right side of the tray. The Dealers may need Floor approval to move them. This "Helps" the Floor know when there is a movement in the table's tray of note.

Sometimes at a Ploppy Property with this procedure the "Right Side" Chips are payout chips, the "Left Side" Chips are Buy-in chips. The Pit personnel are less concerned with the "Right Side" chips. If a dealer needs to use the "Left Side" chips to pay out it indicates a losing dealer. Ploppy mentality? I know, but it is still out there. If you see a Dealer catching "Heat" for this please exploit that property for all it is worth.

2) The dealer must pay or collect wagers on the last 4 positions with their right hand from the right side of the tray. The dealer must pay or collect wagers on the first 3 positions with their left hand from the left side of the tray. The Idea is for the dealer to keep the "Chip Tray Assets" always in front of their body.

In case #2 (I had a difficult time properly learning this. I am Dominately right-handed.) I watch to see if the dealers are like robots. (Very procedure driven location) Or are they generally covering the body square idea. This is a more difficult procedure to teach your dealers but I like it better from my point of view. Ambe... Ambedetr... Never mind, ;O) People who can properly use both hands are hard to find.

3) With the Dealer's right-hand only, The last 4 positions are paid from the right side of the tray. The first 3 positions are paid from the left side of the tray.

I would guess one of these is being done at your favorite property. Or more likely NOT being done! ;O)

Any way these are some procedures we use. The Fill procedure is not affected by right or left-handed dealers.

Sincerly

OnePitCritter
 
#19
Thanks Toddler :O)

Yes, I understand.

I must give my appology if it sounded like I thought your Question came from an illegal stand point of view. I am sorry but I am just not comfortable discussing this item on a Public message Board.

Sincerly

OnePitCritter

Thank You for the oppertunity to answer what I felt I comfortably could. Hopefuly someone else in this forum could help with your remaining Questions.
 
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