Heads up play / Playing with others

ZenKinG

Well-Known Member
#1
For everyone out there, I finally analyzed everything about heads up play and every single combination of what's actually optimal when playing heads up as well as with others in regards to 1 hand vs 2 hands.

First off, which might surprise people is that 'a higher spread heads up isn't exactly more optimal'. Now that might not make sense at first but let me explain with the numbers. Playing 2 hands throughout the shoe off the top at 0 and -1 before you wong out OUTPERFORMS 1 HAND at 0 and -1 and then spreading to 2 hands at +1 and higher. So even if someone is going from 1x10 off the top to 2x200(1-40 spread), the 2x10 to 2x200(1-20 spread) WILL OUTPERFORM on every metric other than risk(ROR) where it increases a smaller percentage. That's right, a smaller spread heads up will actually outperform 1 hand at negatives and then spreading to 2 hands and that's where I went wrong in PA. I would always play 1 hand and then move to 2 hands in plus counts. The win rate, N0, and SCORE all drastically improve by playing 2 hands off the top and throughout all the positives. With that being said, in terms of N0, the higher the minimum and the tighter the spread, 2 hands at 0 and -1 will NOT outperform the 1 hand approach at 0 and -1, So for example 2x25-2x200 will not outperform 1x25-2x200 in terms of N0. But if the minimums are lower, 2x10-2x200 will outperform 1x10-2x200.

Secondly, when you play with others, funnily enough, the metrics all improve when you do the opposite. Playing 1 hand when playing with others improves the N0, lowers the risk and improves the SCORE. The 2 hand approach at 0 and -1 still outperforms on the win rate, but the only time 2 hands playing with others at 0 and -1 would outperform the 1 hand approach at 0 and -1 on any metric would be the N0 if you're spreading huge but it still wont be by much. So as a general rule of thumb when playing with others, it's best to play with 1 hand at 0 or -1 or better yet just backcount and sit out every negative expectation bet.

So to summarize, 2 hands at 0 and -1 heads up is the optimal move over 1 hand at 0 and -1 IF the minimums are low and your spread is high. In regards to playing with others, playing with 1 hand at 0 and -1 is the optimal move unless you spread huge where then even 2 hands at negatives when playing with others will outperform on N0. In regards to win rate, 2 hands at 0 and -1 will always outperform in any scenario regardless if heads up or playing with others. ROR will always be higher as well when playing 2 hands at 0 and -1 in any scenario. N0 and SCORE is where the 1 hand vs 2 hands at 0 and -1 whether heads up or with others is the difference.

Sorry if I made anyone's head spin with this, but I finally took a hard long look at all of this.
 
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DSchles

Well-Known Member
#2
No one ever does this right, using CVCX, because no one ever figures the number of hands per hour properly. You likely made the same mistake.

Don
 

ZenKinG

Well-Known Member
#3
DSchles said:
No one ever does this right, using CVCX, because no one ever figures the number of hands per hour properly. You likely made the same mistake.

Don
This has nothing to do with rounds per hour. Rounds per hour has no effect on N0, which is what this post dealt with.
 

DSchles

Well-Known Member
#4
ZenKinG said:
This has nothing to do with rounds per hour. Rounds per hour has no effect on N0, which is what this post dealt with.
Please don't speak to me like you know more than I do. How do you think you find N0, if not by calculating e.v. and s.d.? How do you find those values for playing one hand vs. two without factoring in how many hands you play per unit of time?

Don't talk down to me; it ill becomes you.

Don
 

ZenKinG

Well-Known Member
#5
DSchles said:
Please don't speak to me like you know more than I do. How do you think you find N0, if not by calculating e.v. and s.d.? How do you find those values for playing one hand vs. two without factoring in how many hands you play per unit of time?

Don't talk down to me; it ill becomes you.

Don
No need for you to be insecure because i wasnt talking down to you. It would be foolish for me to think i know more than you or to act like I do. I actually respect a lot of the work you have done such as the optimal departure data you and your colleagues helped to compile.

With that being said, it is also foolish for you to think youre so far ahead and better than everyone else. So can you please correct anything I stated in the OP because i think all of it was correct as well as my statement about rounds per hour and N0.
 

DSchles

Well-Known Member
#6
This is a tired, old discussion. You're not the first to do it; you're the 101st. GIGO. When you play two hands, you can't do so as fast as playing one hand all the time, and you use more cards. You can't then just look at the CVCX output that assumes 100 rounds per hour and conclude that, no matter how many hands you play, you get those same 100 rounds per hour. This, in turn, impacts all the stats you are quoting.

Don
 

KewlJ

Well-Known Member
#7
DSchles said:
When you play two hands, you can't do so as fast as playing one hand all the time,
Excellent point Don. This is one of several discussions where players take sim results and don't allow for adjustments to real world play. This is actually very similar in nature to the higher error rate for certain counts that players of those counts refuse to acknowledge. In this case instead of not acknowledging a higher error rate, the player is refusing to associate slower play when playing multiple hands. Basically it is not allowing for the human element. These are just two examples where there will be a difference between computer sim results and real life play.

Now, I am not suggesting that Zenking is one of those guys that all or the majority of his play takes place on a computer, like some here. His mistake is not adjusting for real life play. Computer sims are only a tool. Some players never learn that.
 

ZenKinG

Well-Known Member
#8
I still do not understand how N0 is being affected here due to rounds per hour. Im talking about strictly N0. The number does t change due to rounds per per hour. Im not worried about how many hours it will take based on rounds per hour to reach N0, im talkimg specifically about the number given for a certain game and bet schedule. If a game has a 17k N0 with 2 hands, it stays fixed at 17k regardless of rounds per hour, whereas a game with 23k stays fixed at 23k regardless of rounds per hour.
 

DSchles

Well-Known Member
#10
ZenKinG said:
I still do not understand how N0 is being affected here due to rounds per hour. Im talking about strictly N0. The number does t change due to rounds per per hour. Im not worried about how many hours it will take based on rounds per hour to reach N0, im talkimg specifically about the number given for a certain game and bet schedule. If a game has a 17k N0 with 2 hands, it stays fixed at 17k regardless of rounds per hour, whereas a game with 23k stays fixed at 23k regardless of rounds per hour.
You aren't understanding. Do you know how N0 or SCORE are calculated? They don't just magically "appear." They represent a certain metric. If you don't understand how that metric is generated, then you can't understand what I'm saying.

Don
 
#11
you know when i simmed 1v1 heads up with dealer i got better results no suprise and when i played with others full table it was a losing cycle i guess mainly your dividing the blackjacks among 7 heads instead of 2. and the dealer always managed to pull 21 out there ass regardless of the count

in other words the frequencies of winning combos at a full table were very very low for 1 head among 7 heads that have to share the good cards
and the frequencies of losing combos were still in position against dealer still manage to come out with that powerful hand more times than not

your right siting out bad hands is a smart move but not practically suppose count does reach a good count and table gets full my experience

not to mention eye is the sky is eye balling you while your back counting

all for what? risking 10-20$ an hour vs risk of ruin of losing all your money before you double it?this game is under a lock n key
 
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