Honesty in BJ

[ZOD]

I had a discussion the other evening with a counter friend and the subject turned to dealer mistakes in the player's favor. His contention was that the casinos try to screw us at every opportunity and if they make a mistake, we should take full advantage of it. I'm sure that is a popular sentiment, and I'll admit to keeping a few chips paid to me in error over the years, but a scene I witnessed a couple of years ago has stuck with me and I thought I might share it.

I was playing 6D heads up at TI when a pretty Asian girl sat down and began flat betting $5 hands. She continued for a couple of shoes, never raising her bet, until her red was gone. Then she pulled out a black chip and bet it. The dealer had a 10 up and she was dealt a 6 card 22 which the dealer miscounted as a 21. After turning over another 10 for a 20, he paid her $100 and scooped up the cards. She turned to me and said "Didn't I bust?" Not knowing how to respond, I said that I hadn't been paying that much attention. She then insisted that the dealer (over his objection) pull the discards and recheck her hand. With the floor looking on, a recount confirmed that she had busted and the dealer retrieved the casino's black chip as well as her own. The floor, dealer, and I must have had that "are you an idiot?" look on our faces and when she saw it, she shrugged her shoulders, simply said "karma" and walked away.

Now, I can't say whether this young lady actually believed in some form of karmic retribution or whether she was just plain honest. I can say that it has made me stop and think about greed vs. honesty and the direction of my own moral compass. As advantage players, we brag about how we use our brains and our mental discipline to tilt the odds in our favor. We condemn the casinos for calling us "cheaters." My question is: If we keep ill-gotten gains, aren't we actually cheating? Shouldn't we increase our bankrolls by our wits, and not by petty theft? Or should we cater to the greed and "take the money and run"? My friend and I would be interested in your comments.

 

[zengrifter]

I saw a similar situation at FitzG's awhile back - two tourist gals sat down to my right and one ponies up a $100 bill whereupon the dealer proceeds to breakout $100 in reds for each of them - whereupon the firt gal looks at her friend and then the dealer and whines, "she didn't put up any money, why did she get chips!" I chuckled and said to the attendent PC "Do NOT rob a bank with this girl!" and then the whiner said to me sternly "we are only here to get lucky!" zg

 

[The Mayor]

Mixed sentiments

If you read my essays, you will find that I advocate fair play. But, this has two contingencies:

1) You are not playing to win (you are a basic strategy player).

2) You will be returning to the same casino, so you want to establish a long term relationship for good comps.

On the other hand, when I play "for real" I do everything in my power to encourage dealer errors.

Here are examples of things I have actually done:

1) The 5+ card busts me at 22 and I pound the table and say "all right, 21!!!"

2) The dealer makes a difficult 5+ card 20/21 and I pound that table and say "yeah! bust!!"

3) The dealer and I have multi-card totals, and the dealer has beaten me, I cry out "push!" ant pull my money back. Of course, I expect to have the dealer correct me, but he doesn't always clearly recall my bet size.

4) I ask to surrender before the dealer checks for the ace.

5) I insure for more.

6) I double for more.

7 Any number of things when the dealer has a blackjack.

So you see, I am not that good of a Christian at the tables. As long as it is legal, though, I don't see a good reason not to do it to the casinos.

On the other hand, I would NEVER take an action that would harm another player.

 

[branmuffin]

Re: Mixed sentiments

Mayor:
Wow those are all great moves ..and they are legal and most be profitable ocasionally and add to EV.
But do you make these plays in every applicable situation ??
If you did I think you would possibly attract heat from the pit which would nullify these plays..

I am guessing you use them sporadically?

 

[zengrifter]

Dealer error THINKFAST!

Dealer error THINKFAST!

My last trip provided a rash of dealer errors that were exploitable only by thinking fast - like the dealer hard 20 that was then hit with 2 Aces while I
stood on 99 with a maxBet - as the dealer called the PC over I yanked my 9s up and started scratching - had the PC seen my cards tucked he likely would NOT have called it a dead hand.

Same dealer/table w/ 2 maxBets out I was dealt 1 card to each, whereupon I found an 8 on one and a 10 on the other, dealer showing 10 - careful to keep them seperate the dealer called a floorgal who did not respond - dealer then attempted to push them together to make 1 hand whereupon I pushed them appart again (in a playful manner) and requested a PC, who upon arriving said "deal him 2 more cards." I now held 8-4 on the 1st hand and PC asks if I want to play it - "no" - 2nd hand is 10-10 - "yes" --keeping the cards
seperate was key.

At the Hshoe recently 2 ploppies invaded my heads-up game and somehow I was dealt 3 cards which I quickly glanced at 8-3-5 - I kicked back the 5 in front of my bet and when the dealer got to me he asked "whats this?" "I dunno." He quickly burned it stating that if he calls the suits over it will be a dead
round.

I had more of these incidents in 14 days of play then I can recall in any previous 200 days of play.

Be alert for dealer errors and THINKFAST! (like when the dealer fails to burn a card after shuffle, common at Barona, if you don't like your hand...) zg

 

[zengrifter]

Mixed "sporadically" = aggregate EV increase

 

[sighguy]

Re: Mixed sentiments

The dealer and I have multi-card totals, and the dealer has beaten me, I cry out "push!" ant pull my money back. Of course, I expect to have the dealer correct me, but he doesn't always clearly recall my bet size.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that would be knowingly pinching your bet - which is a crime. You'd probably get away with it once, but would be warned. If you did it again after being warned it was illegal, you could be snatched up for an appointment with a gaming agent. I know you've made a big deal about how counting isn't cheating ( and I don't think it is), but actions such as you've outlined is the reason "advantage" players are thought of as....well, name calling never accomplishes anything, does it? I will tell you now, I work in a casino (big surprise huh?) and over the years I have seen many instances wherein the CASINO failed to properly pay a patron. Each time I've seen it, I have made sure that the money was paid to the patron. It works both ways, I truly believe that. My karma is sailing along just fine..how 'bout yours?

 

[zengrifter]

Here's a better way -

- You've got a maxBet out and catch a crappy pair (77v10, etc.) - call the PC over and ask "may I split?" - when he indicates the house's approval THEN grab the money and head out the door.

True story, Maxim April 1 1987, those fabulous 2D games, I catch a very odd-looking 5card 22 and proclaim "bingo!" and tuck the cards, the dealer whisks up my cards and pays me, and then a PC from three-tables down halts the play and spreads my cards revealing the correct total - with a sheepish smile I say "April Fools!" zg

 

[zengrifter]

Re: Mixed sentiments HERE'S ONE=

Mayor didn't say that he would pinch the total... these are moves that can each be played at a different casino very infrequently - often times its enough to simply pat-motion a push even though your 4card 18 doesn't push the dealer's 2card 19.

HERE'S ONE (a 1-time per club/yr) = I'm at 3rd base, face-down pitch, I spread to 2hands but I'm only dealt 1hand by dealer-error - I push the cards apart WITHOUT FIRST LOOKING, 1card to a bet (I do this quickly while the dealer is occupied at 1st base, remember I haven't looked at them and I did have both bets out properly) In most clubs the PC will instruct the dealer to deal another card each and then give me the option to play or FREE SURRENDAR (ie, dead hand) each. This is a move that I learned from the several times that a dealer DID deal 1card per spot. zg

 

[The Mayor]

So nice

It is so very nice to hear from an insider on these boards.

I encourage you to contribute as often and in any situation you like.

I pull my moves whenever the "feeling" is right. But, I am strictly legal, I would never violate the law, in any case whatsoever. I pull every legal move in the book, as often as possible, to take as much money from you as I possibly can. But, it is all legal, you bet!

However, I have seen dealer systematically short change me, several times in a session, more times than I can count. These dealers are working for someone, either themselves, a cheating ring, or the house.

Do these dealers keep the extra chips for themselves? Why do they do it?

--Mayor

 

[phantom007]

Re: Dealer error THINKFAST!

I have personally found that correcting dealer overpayments is appreciated by both the dealer and the Floor Personnel, and I have experience warm situations that suddently turned quite cool...i.e., watchful eyes turn into smiles, comps, and NO HEAT.

 

[zengrifter]

Re: Dealer error THINKFAST!

Correcting dealer errors to the house's benefit IS a valid form of cover... as is NOT correcting dealr errors to your favor... the situation/enviroment will usually suggest the best tactic. zg

 

[lifesabet]

Re: Mixed sentiments

Im just too disgusted to say what I really think about these types of tactics.
...but I sent the mayor my nasty little message via email. no hard feelings.

Lets see, BlackJack can be beat. Therefore, I want

o A regulatory agency to protect my rights, same as all other players
o The casinos to pay me when I win
o The casinos to pay for all my drinks and comps
o The casinos to be courteous to me even though I wong in and out at

every opportunity and demand the full betting range of the table,

(did I mention that I want that cut card as deep as possible?)
o No heat from the pit when I play with my brain, afterall the casino

is going to win in the end so why cant I have my fair shot too?

o And to top it off, I want to work against the casino, actively doing what

I can to increase the number of errors that the dealer makes in my favor,

and coincidentally in favor of the other squares at my table.

The casino is there because of square money. They would all love to play
fair and not have the head-aches of dealing with dihonest folks. They would
probably not care too much about card counters (however working in teams is
a whole different story and my opinion is that casinos should have the power
to discourage this if they are sharp enough to identify it). But then there are
the few dishonest folks which screw it up for all others. If you are an advantaged player and think you are winning the casinos money, well try asking yourself where the money came from. If you are working for yourself, thats fair, thats what you are supposed to be doing. If you are working with the casino because you want to be able to be paid, thats a great idea. If you are working for 'the players', then shouldnt you be standing outside with a picket sign saying 'dont go in there, you will lose all your money!'

If every single bj player visited this site, and knew what you knew, whether or not they cheat (ie: use the tactics you mentioned) then there would be no bj tables to play at. Luckily, not every player will go to the trouble to learn as much as you have. That means you will always have tables to play at, and most likely, average folks will still believe that bj is beatable and will continue to play. Life is not fair, and I guess everyone should try to get whatever edge they can get, so now you probably understand why heat is so very necessary. I guess cards really are war in disguise of a game.

-lifesabet

 

[The Mayor]

Re: Dealer error THINKFAST!

Yes, that's true. But have you also noticed the opposite when you catch the dealer in a mistake? "Hey, that guy is watching too closely, we better keep an eye on him..."

I advocate correcting all dealer errors you see, as long as you are NOT playing at an advantage, and you are playing at a casino in which you are a regular.

I'll go a step further. If you live in an area of the country where there are a few local casinos that you hit all the time, then you want to be on the good side, they will learn your face soon enough. Cover is everything, and it will cost a bit. In this case, correcting SMALL dealer errors in your favor is the right way to go. Longevity is everything.

--Mayor

 

[ZOD]

I figured that there would be differing opinions on this topic. But, I am a little suprised by the cavalier interpretations of cheating, especially after years of hearing counters complain about being regarded as cheaters by the casinos. I know the world isn't black and white and I know that human beings are wizards at rationalizing their own actions. I just wonder if the guy who knowingly accepts an incorrect dealer payout is the same guy who wouldn't return a lost wallet. Do we change our basic nature at the tables, or is it an indicator of who we really are?

In the casino world, I have a vested interest in being honest at the tables. I mostly play at local casinos where several dealers and floors know me by name. I agree with Phantom that casino goodwill gained by an honest approach far outweighs the extra money I could make by cheating. As the Mayor correctly pointed out, longevity is everything, especially in a case like mine. I can win without using "questionable methods". I try to play smart and take my wins a few chips at a time. For me, this approach works fine.

I know that everyone has their own agendas and circumstances and I am truly not trying to preach. I just wanted to toss out a little food for thought. Thanks for the responses. Best...
ZOD

 

[Felix Rue-de-Guerre]

The following incident happened to me quite a while ago.

The appropriate hand signal for surrender in one of the non-LV casinos I had visited is to hold your hand palm up, and draw your four fingers toward you a couple of times, in sort of a "come here"-type gesture. This was the case the first time I've ever encountered a surrender rule.

I visited Las Vegas for the first time shortly after this, and was playing in a game that offered surrender. I made my surrender gesture and said something like:

"Pretty crumby hand...surrender that".
The dealer hit the hand and I busted.
"Wait a minute, I just surrendered that hand!"
"This means hit". (giving my surrrender signal)
"But I said outloud I wanted to surrender"
"We have to go by hand signals so the camera can see"
I asked for the pitboss. When he came over I told him how I had learned a different signal, and how I said outloud I wanted to surrender... No good.
"Look, I just made a mistake", I said to the dealer. "I'm sure you heard me say... ".
At this point the pitboss started the authoritarian act.
"You hit the hand and that's the end of it".
And that was the end of it.

Was it my fault I didn't know the proper hand signal and inadvertently busted that hand? Yes it was. I screwed up. But, there is not one bit of doubt in my mind the dealer knew I made a mistake. He heard me ask for the surrender. I'm absolutely positive he knew.

The point being: There is no way a casino will give a player the benefit when he screws up. It's never going to happen. Therefore, it is important not to correct mistakes that occur in ones favor as a player. This isn't a question of anyone "screwing anyone at any opportunity". This, for me, has simply become a rule of fair play.

 

[sighguy]

The point being: There is no way a casino will give a player the benefit when he screws up. It's never going to happen

Um, baloney Felix. You have one "bad" experience and it's now "no way a casino will.." situation? The fact of the matter is the PB had no concept of customer service - that being, give the player the benefit of the doubt, you'll have a customer for life.

But - you also have to be aware (please read Mayors tactics) that this is also a common, cheap shot. Push a little if you feel you're right - ask to speak to the PB's boss. That will (depending on the place) probably lead to a request for video review. Believe this - if there's a competent eye-guy (or gal, gotta be PC) they will check back a few hands to see if you made a different signal for a "hit" - if so, chances are (depending on the place) - you'll be given the benefit of the doubt and allowed to surrender.

Of course, this is totally based on my personal experience in the world of Casino Gaming.

 

[The Mayor]

I have to agree with sighguy. It is my experience that the "keep the customer happy" rule is common at most casinos. Only a few, like the El Cortez, will go out of their way to screw you if they have the chance.

The following happened to me. I was counting a double deck game, the count was huge, I had a monster bet out and split and doubled. The table was full, and the dealer turns over a stiff. The count was so huge, I knew all the cards remaining were T. She ran out of cards and now she might actually make a hand when she shuffled the remainder (given all the T's on the table!).

The pit boss not only let me take my bet back, he comped me a dinner in the nicest restaurant in the house for their mistake.

--Mayor

 

[Felix Rue-de-Guerre]

OK, SighGuy. I may have been a bit overly-emphatic when I said it would never happen. But, the example I gave was just one of a few situations I had encountered. My rule to not correct dealer mistakes is based on my time at the tables too, so I'll have to stand by my position.

Mayor, I believe you're misunderstanding me. When a dealer deals past the end of the pack it is the mistake of the house, not the player. Yes, I've found the house (just about) always corrects themselves when a dealer goofs in favor of the casino.

Look at it this way:
1. I error in casinos favor --so-- I accept when casino errors in my favor
2. Casino errors in casinos favor --so-- casino usually makes good
3. I error in my favor -- This is as not likely to happen as the other scenarios. If I misplay a hand, chances are I'll lose because it's an incorrect play. Plus, I have encountered those relatively rare situations where the house did not compensate for it's own mistake. So, there is a bit of a balance here too.

The fairest thing to do is accept dealer mistakes as part of the game. And, accept when errors end up working against you with no hard feelings.

 

[The Mayor]

Point made. I did not read what you were saying correctly.

At the El Cortez, if you make an honest mistake, they will eat you up. Likewise at the Golden Spike, the Western, the Barbary Coast, the Frontier, and a few other shops.

At just about every other place, especially the nicer strip joints, I always get the benefit of the doubt from the floor. They have too much at stake to mistreat me, or so they think .

Their must be a formula that equates the last time the carpet was shampooed with the quality of the customer service in gaming disputes.

--Mayor