How Are They Neutralizing The Shoe?

[Raven]

One of the casinos I play at has consistently negative to zero shoes for hours on end. I am getting emails from other APs asking me, and there are Google Reviews of this casino where this very issue is being called out by other unnamed card counters. Some are pointing to the shufflers. I tend to think the constantly full tables are diluting any surplus of high cards that might randomly surface. I've noticed this as even if you do hit TC +2 (which might not happen in 8 or more hours), it might only be for 1 round. So basically it's an unbeatable 6D game with average rules. The pen sucks now, but a few months ago they were cutting less than a deck. Same deal, nothing for hours and hours. But here's the more mysterious part. When you do get a strong shoe, the true count goes way beyond +8.. to the +13, +15 area... but it doesn't help. Nothing changes. You still get the same stiff hands and the dealer is still hitting to high totals, very rarely busting. I asked if it was a Spanish 21 deck. Could it be somebody accidentally put the wrong cards in the shoe? I've been winning and losing the same $800 to $1000 for over a year now, so I am not losing there but I'm not really winning either. Now their other properties are entirely different. They own the Hard Rock name and 6 of us regularly hit their 2 other casinos with good results. Counts are in normal range and move around more often; high counts hurt the dealer/help the player etc. The games offered are 6D and 8D, hand shuffle and machine. Nothing really out of the ordinary with the count or the results. Have you guys ever seen anything like this, or for this long? It started in 2014 and is annoyingly predictable at this point.

Thanks.

Raven

 

[gronbog]

So the count is constantly going negative, which means you're seeing more low cards than high cards, so it's not a Spanish deck. But wait, the count does go positive, but only to +2 for one hand unless it goes to +15 with bad penetration.

Too many contradictions for me, but suppose this is all true. My question for you is, if you think they've been cheating since 2014, then why are you still playing?

 

[Raven]

You're right I didn't even think of that.. you're good.

 

[Counting_Is_Fun]

One of the casinos I play at has consistently negative to zero shoes for hours on end. I am getting emails from other APs asking me, and there are Google Reviews of this casino where this very issue is being called out by other unnamed card counters. Some are pointing to the shufflers. I tend to think the constantly full tables are diluting any surplus of high cards that might randomly surface. I've noticed this as even if you do hit TC +2 (which might not happen in 8 or more hours), it might only be for 1 round. So basically it's an unbeatable 6D game with average rules. The pen sucks now, but a few months ago they were cutting less than a deck. Same deal, nothing for hours and hours. But here's the more mysterious part. When you do get a strong shoe, the true count goes way beyond +8.. to the +13, +15 area... but it doesn't help. Nothing changes. You still get the same stiff hands and the dealer is still hitting to high totals, very rarely busting. I asked if it was a Spanish 21 deck. Could it be somebody accidentally put the wrong cards in the shoe? I've been winning and losing the same $800 to $1000 for over a year now, so I am not losing there but I'm not really winning either. Now their other properties are entirely different. They own the Hard Rock name and 6 of us regularly hit their 2 other casinos with good results. Counts are in normal range and move around more often; high counts hurt the dealer/help the player etc. The games offered are 6D and 8D, hand shuffle and machine. Nothing really out of the ordinary with the count or the results. Have you guys ever seen anything like this, or for this long? It started in 2014 and is annoyingly predictable at this point.

Thanks.

Raven

I would agree with gronbog. I would only add...if it takes you 8 hours of play to reach a +2 count...then why are you even still playing at this location?

 

[Raven]

I don't play there very often at all. It's just on occasion someone might text and say the count's moving again.. etc. I may or may not stop in. And I don't wait around 8 hours anymore. The place is ripe with green dealers lifting hole cards and paying on pushes. I'm not saying it's all bad, but strictly backcounting in my early years I got very tired of those 12 hour days only to catch a few advantage hands that hopefully worked out. It got old. I noticed none of this in '13 and knocked them out all year, never had to buy in twice. In '14 I was noticing shoes weren't turning as much as they were the 1st year. The waiting around got longer and longer. I passed it off as my inexperience with long run possibilities. By '15 I stopped going there completely. Not so much because I thought something was wrong but because I needed to make money. And the few times the count was strong enough to wong in worked against me more often than not. I started to travel more (blackjack is illegal in my state), and that is where I started to notice a stark difference between games. For example they show you the cards in other states. So there's no question they're legit. I didn't even realize that was a thing. I didn't set foot in that place in '15 or '16. I got a phone call in early '17.. Another AP, she said "You gotta see this." So.. walk in the casino. Backcount a couple shoes, bam! Over true +8 everywhere, 0.3% occurrence, but I didn't pay it no mind. Let's take 'em down! Within a couple months I couldn't afford to lose anymore. I told myself it was variance. I had heard all the horror stories, and it sucked that I fell all the way down the stairs into the long run, but kept practicing and playing at smaller stakes out of state. So no I don't play there these days very much. I've met 5 other APs locally and we all have our different theories as to why the count never moves. There are others that have left reviews about oddly stagnant counts, and what they think might be the cause. I posted here and so far everyone seems as stumped as we are. But at least we all agree that it's an anomaly.

 

[BJgenius007]

One of the casinos I play at has consistently negative to zero shoes for hours on end. I am getting emails from other APs asking me, and there are Google Reviews of this casino where this very issue is being called out by other unnamed card counters. Some are pointing to the shufflers. I tend to think the constantly full tables are diluting any surplus of high cards that might randomly surface. I've noticed this as even if you do hit TC +2 (which might not happen in 8 or more hours), it might only be for 1 round. So basically it's an unbeatable 6D game with average rules. The pen sucks now, but a few months ago they were cutting less than a deck. Same deal, nothing for hours and hours. But here's the more mysterious part. When you do get a strong shoe, the true count goes way beyond +8.. to the +13, +15 area... but it doesn't help. Nothing changes. You still get the same stiff hands and the dealer is still hitting to high totals, very rarely busting. I asked if it was a Spanish 21 deck. Could it be somebody accidentally put the wrong cards in the shoe? I've been winning and losing the same $800 to $1000 for over a year now, so I am not losing there but I'm not really winning either. Now their other properties are entirely different. They own the Hard Rock name and 6 of us regularly hit their 2 other casinos with good results. Counts are in normal range and move around more often; high counts hurt the dealer/help the player etc. The games offered are 6D and 8D, hand shuffle and machine. Nothing really out of the ordinary with the count or the results. Have you guys ever seen anything like this, or for this long? It started in 2014 and is annoyingly predictable at this point.

Thanks.

Raven

I think you mean flat, slightly negative and slight positive. One of ASM beast modes is to configure six decks as double deck x 3 or eight decks as double deck x 4. Then RC is going nowhere.

 

[LC Larry]

THERE IS NO DAMN THING AS BEAST MODE! GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK HEAD.

 

[Raven]

I think you mean flat, slightly negative and slight positive. One of ASM beast modes is to configure six decks as double deck x 3 or eight decks as double deck x 4. Then RC is going nowhere.

What do you mean, the ASMs? Can't be. The Hard Rock next door uses ASMs with 8D and it plays nothing like what I'm talking about. You will wait around LESS with the 8D, and end up with way more hands in positive territory. That's been my experience.

 

[Spyros Acebos]

One of the casinos I play at has consistently negative to zero shoes for hours on end. I am getting emails from other APs asking me, and there are Google Reviews of this casino where this very issue is being called out by other unnamed card counters. Some are pointing to the shufflers. I tend to think the constantly full tables are diluting any surplus of high cards that might randomly surface. I've noticed this as even if you do hit TC +2 (which might not happen in 8 or more hours), it might only be for 1 round. So basically it's an unbeatable 6D game with average rules. The pen sucks now, but a few months ago they were cutting less than a deck. Same deal, nothing for hours and hours. But here's the more mysterious part. When you do get a strong shoe, the true count goes way beyond +8.. to the +13, +15 area... but it doesn't help. Nothing changes. You still get the same stiff hands and the dealer is still hitting to high totals, very rarely busting. I asked if it was a Spanish 21 deck. Could it be somebody accidentally put the wrong cards in the shoe? I've been winning and losing the same $800 to $1000 for over a year now, so I am not losing there but I'm not really winning either. Now their other properties are entirely different. They own the Hard Rock name and 6 of us regularly hit their 2 other casinos with good results. Counts are in normal range and move around more often; high counts hurt the dealer/help the player etc. The games offered are 6D and 8D, hand shuffle and machine. Nothing really out of the ordinary with the count or the results. Have you guys ever seen anything like this, or for this long? It started in 2014 and is annoyingly predictable at this point.

Thanks.

Raven

Sounds “Classic”!

 

[Raven]

I don't know where I said they were cheating. I read my original post and didn't see it in there. What I did say at one point was that they were "caught cheating" in 1998 by the Sheriff's office, who proceeded to raid them and confiscate a bunch of cash etc. That was a long time ago. I don't know if they're cheating now. I don't even know what cards are in the shoes. I would be speculating. I'm just stating what I'm observing and the relevant results of what I'm observing.

On the penetration.. at one time all dealers were cutting a little less than a deck off. This was during the slower Summer months. Now they cut 75 cards-ish. And you just scout for the dealers interested in getting tipped. Sometimes the cut is put at 50% if I walk up to it and there is a helicopter pit boss that will tell dealer to cut in the middle.

 

[Raven]

Here's a couple interesting texts I received tonight.. I'm just glad I'm not nuts lol.. It's already bad enough people think you're fuggin' gambling, but on top of it you're trying to explain why you're losing!
And it just a fuggin' giant "Told ya so" moment for them..

 

[Raven]

And another guy..

 

[Raven]

A couple of us went last night. We backcounted 12 shoes, 2 of which remained negative to zero (this is usually all the shoes for fuckin' days!). The others TC+10 and higher. One shoe was more legit in the TC+2 to TC+4 range. Dealer got lucky early but overall, the shoe delivered the goods. I didn't play at all and those of us who did got smacked with the huge surplus of low cards remaining in those high count shoes. Feel free to stop in there if you're ever in town.. maybe I'm missing something.