Illustrious 18 / Fab 4 (Hi / Lo System)

T

Teetime11

Member
#1
#1
Please only respond if you are positive about your answers, otherwise state how sure you are. Please assume we are using the Hi / Lo counting system, S17, 6 deck shoe, most favorable rules, and we are counting according to the Illuztrious 18 and Fab 4 only.Thank you.

So, if you are dealt 15 vs a dealer ace.. First, is the index number +1 or +2 for the Fab 4 surrender here. In addition, the Illustrious 18 says to take insurance at +3. What hands do you take insurance with? Finally, does early surrender exist anywhere, or has it been eliminated entirely?
 
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DSchles

Well-Known Member
#2
#2
"Please only respond if you are positive about your answers, otherwise state how sure you are."

I'm sure, but you may want to check with someone who knows more about the I18 than I do. :)

"Please assume we are using the Hi / Lo counting system, S17, 6 deck shoe, most favorable rules, and we are counting according to the Illustrious 18 and Fab 4 only.Thank you.

"So, if you are dealt 15 vs a dealer ace.. First, is the index number +1 or +2 for the Fab 4 surrender here."

+2.

"In addition, the Illustrious 18 says to take insurance at +3. What hands do you take insurance with?"

All of them.

"Finally, does early surrender exist anywhere, or has it been eliminated entirely?"

The world is a big place. It exists, but not too readily in the U.S., if that's where you are.

Don
 
T

Teetime11

Member
#3
#3
DSchles said:
"Please only respond if you are positive about your answers, otherwise state how sure you are."

I'm sure, but you may want to check with someone who knows more about the I18 than I do. :)

"Please assume we are using the Hi / Lo counting system, S17, 6 deck shoe, most favorable rules, and we are counting according to the Illustrious 18 and Fab 4 only.Thank you.

"So, if you are dealt 15 vs a dealer ace.. First, is the index number +1 or +2 for the Fab 4 surrender here."

+2.

"In addition, the Illustrious 18 says to take insurance at +3. What hands do you take insurance with?"

All of them.

"Finally, does early surrender exist anywhere, or has it been eliminated entirely?"

The world is a big place. It exists, but not too readily in the U.S., if that's where you are.

Hi Don, and thank you for responding. When you say to take insurance with all of the hands, you can't mean every possible hand. Are you referring to all of the Illustrious 18 and Fab 4 hands? Also, the Fab 4 hands would qualify for early OR late surrender, right?
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L

LC Larry

Well-Known Member
#4
#4
When the TC is +3 or higher, and the dealer shows an ace, you bet on insurance no matter what hand you've been dealt. It's nothing more than a side bet on whether the down card is a ten or not.
 
D

DSchles

Well-Known Member
#5
#5
"Hi Don, and thank you for responding. When you say to take insurance with all of the hands, you can't mean every possible hand. Are you referring to all of the Illustrious 18 and Fab 4 hands?"

LC Larry has explained, above. You take insurance at TC >=+3 vs. the dealer's Ace no matter what your hand is.

"Also, the Fab 4 hands would qualify for early OR late surrender, right?"

No. The Fab 4 hands are for LATE, or conventional, surrender. While they of course qualify for early surrender, the indices are very different and there are many more hands to be early surrendered.

Don
 
T

Teetime11

Member
#7
#7
So, if I have 15 vs a dealer ace, and the true count is 3 or higher, the correct play is to take insurance instead of late surrendering, right? And if the true count is 2, the play is to late surrender? And if the count is anything below 2, the correct thing to do is waive the insurance and hit, right?
 
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DSchles

Well-Known Member
#8
#8
Teetime11 said:
So, if I have 15 vs a dealer ace, and the true count is 3 or higher, the correct play is to take insurance instead of late surrendering, right? And if the true count is 2, the play is to late surrender? And if the count is anything below 2, the correct thing to do is waive the insurance and hit, right?
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No, the correct play is to take insurance and then, if the dealer doesn't have it, surrender. You can do both.

Correct for the last two points.

Don
 
A

AC3SrW1LD

Member
#9
#9
Teetime11 said:
So, if I have 15 vs a dealer ace, and the true count is 3 or higher, the correct play is to take insurance instead of late surrendering, right? And if the true count is 2, the play is to late surrender? And if the count is anything below 2, the correct thing to do is waive the insurance and hit, right?
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At +3 and higher you would take insurance and then late surrender. At +2 you would not take insurance and then late surrender. At +1 and below you would not take insurance and then hit.
 
KewlJ

KewlJ

Well-Known Member
#10
#10
DSchles said:
No, the correct play is to take insurance and then, if the dealer doesn't have it, surrender. You can do both.
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I have always thought this is a red flag. You aren't going to see many players do this that aren't pretty serious about their play, meaning at least a pretty good basic strategy player. Once you "alert" the pit/surveillance that you a good player serious about the game rather than a ploppy type player, the next step is to figure out how good?

To be honest, surrender itself has sort of turned into that kind of "tell". You just don't see many "regular players" surrender anymore, and when they do it is almost always 16 vs 10, occasionally 15 vs 10. When I see players surrendering other than 16 vs 10, including against an ace and doing it correctly, I can almost always peg them as a counter.
 
D

DSchles

Well-Known Member
#11
#11
KewlJ said:
I have always thought this is a red flag. You aren't going to see many players do this that aren't pretty serious about their play, meaning at least a pretty good basic strategy player. Once you "alert" the pit/surveillance that you a good player serious about the game rather than a ploppy type player, the next step is to figure out how good?

To be honest, surrender itself has sort of turned into that kind of "tell". You just don't see many "regular players" surrender anymore, and when they do it is almost always 16 vs 10, occasionally 15 vs 10. When I see players surrendering other than 16 vs 10, including against an ace and doing it correctly, I can almost always peg them as a counter.
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So, is there a recommendation here? Surrender is the most valuable rule in blackjack, bar none. Would you forgo it? And, as an index play, insurance is #1. Would you forgo that?

Don
 
KewlJ

KewlJ

Well-Known Member
#12
#12
DSchles said:
So, is there a recommendation here? Surrender is the most valuable rule in blackjack, bar none. Would you forgo it? And, as an index play, insurance is #1. Would you forgo that?

Don
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I am not arguing with you on the math or value of these plays Don. I am simply voicing an opinion that based on my experiences (and feeling) these plays implemented together, one right after the other, might be a bit of a "tell" or red flag. Player have to decide these things for themselves based on their own objectives and situation.

For me, my top priority is longevity, especially when playing my home rotation. And to that, yes, I do forgo the tradition insurance index play (at some cost). I do this by playing counter basic strategy, which as you know calls for a set strategy for some of the most popular plays. I make the play based on what is most beneficial at a TC of +3, when my larger bets are out and pay the penalty for incorrect plays at lower and neutral counts when smaller or minimum wagers are out. Add in aggressively exiting negative counts and the cost is further minimized.

And no I am not recommending this for others. It is what I believe is beneficial to me based on my goals, objectives and situations. I have stopped recommending anything, what count, side bets, style of play to other players. Players need to figure out what is best for them and their own situation.
 
2

21forme

Well-Known Member
#13
#13
DSchles said:
Surrender is the most valuable rule in blackjack, bar none.
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No. 3:2 is the most valuable rule. A few years ago, I would not have considered 3:2 a rule and agreed with you. :)

My favorite play is hitting 17 v A at or below its index, when it's not practical to wong out. Of course this is likely selective memory, but I seem to get a 3 or 4 most of the time :)
 
KewlJ

KewlJ

Well-Known Member
#14
#14
21forme said:
No. 3:2 is the most valuable rule. A few years ago, I would not have considered 3:2 a rule and agreed with you. :)
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The game of blackjack is called blackjack because there is something special about drawing a nature "21". That something special is a 3:2 payout.

So I don't consider 3:2 a rule that can be arbitrarily changed. That is exactly what the casino industry wanted to achieve, people thinking 6:5 is just a rule variation rather than what it really is...cheating! I will never accept that it is just a rule variation. They shouldn't even be allowed to call 6:5 "blackjack" because it is not real blackjack.
 
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L

LC Larry

Well-Known Member
#15
#15
Changing the payout on a game is neither cheating nor changing the name of it. By your standards, 9/5 JoB is a cheating video poker game. And we know it isn't.
 
gronbog

gronbog

Well-Known Member
#17
#17
KewlJ said:
I have always thought this is a red flag. You aren't going to see many players do this that aren't pretty serious about their play, meaning at least a pretty good basic strategy player. Once you "alert" the pit/surveillance that you a good player serious about the game rather than a ploppy type player, the next step is to figure out how good?
Click to expand...
The one time I ever had the opportunity to do this, and did so, the dealer and the other players at the table all burst out in laughter at what an idiot I was. Their logic was that I might as well have just given my initial bet to the dealer before the cards were dealt. The dealer then told the pit supervisor who did the same. I guess whether this is a red flag or not depends on how sharp the casino staff is.
 
The G Man

The G Man

Well-Known Member
#18
#18
KewlJ said:
The game of blackjack is called blackjack because there is something special about drawing a nature "21". That something special is a 3:2 payout.

So I don't consider 3:2 a rule that can be arbitrarily changed. That is exactly what the casino industry wanted to achieve, people thinking 6:5 is just a rule variation rather than what it really is...cheating! I will never accept that it is just a rule variation. They shouldn't even be allowed to call 6:5 "blackjack" because it is not real blackjack.
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EXACTLY!!!
The game that pays 6:5 IS NOT BLACKJACK, period!
Nice post Kewlj
 
2

21forme

Well-Known Member
#20
#20
LC Larry said:
Again, you guys are incorrect. The payout of the hand does NOT dictact the name of the game.
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It SHOULD in the case of BJ. Unfortunately, blackjack, like 3CP is not a trademarked or copyrighted game, so they can do whatever they want, such as make a player BJ a losing hand (when will that happen?!) While technically not cheating, it IS deceptive, especially the way some casinos hide the BJ payoff in very small print on the electronic sign, or my favorite, hiding rules on the felt by spreading the cards on top of them.

Other games such as Spanish 21 are copyrighted, so a casino cannot change any rules without he author/manufacturer offering it.

Your example of video poker is a non-sequitur. Poker hands have no historically defined payoffs.
 
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