S17 indices vs H17 error found

ZenKinG

Well-Known Member
#1
Why are the indices different in the 8 and 9 column? How can that be? The only indices that should change are the A and 6 columns. Why would a s17 or h17 rule affect the 8 and 9 columns etc where the index on one of them is 1 higher or 1 lower? Should every column be the same except for the A and 6 columns?
 
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Dummy

Well-Known Member
#2
Yes and no. For the 7 and higher dealer up card you can't get a soft 17. For ace thru 6 you can get a soft 17. The ace and 6 get them most often but the 2 thru 5 also become soft 17. The most significant changes are for the A and 6 but the 2 thru 5 will have minor changes that either show up or don't depending on how many significant digits you take your index accuracy to.
 

ZenKinG

Well-Known Member
#3
Dummy said:
Yes and no. For the 7 and higher dealer up card you can't get a soft 17. For ace thru 6 you can get a soft 17. The ace and 6 get them most often but the 2 thru 5 also become soft 17. The most significant changes are for the A and 6 but the 2 thru 5 will have minor changes that either show up or don't depending on how many significant digits you take your index accuracy to.
I understand that. My point was about the 8 and 9 columns. How can the indices change for those columns just because one is H17 and the other is S17? It makes no sense.
 

ZenKinG

Well-Known Member
#5
Dummy said:
They don't change. The dealer can't get soft 17 with an 8 or 9 up.
So why are the indices different on Verite? Go look at the indices for surrender for Halves on h17 and s17 and look at the 8 and 9 columns. They are different by 1 on most playing matchups. Why is that? Where did Norm get these indices from?
 

DSchles

Well-Known Member
#7
ZenKinG said:
So why are the indices different on Verite? Go look at the indices for surrender for Halves on h17 and s17 and look at the 8 and 9 columns. They are different by 1 on most playing matchups. Why is that? Where did Norm get these indices from?
Wong's numbers for surrendering vs. 8 and 9 for S17 and H17 are identical in every respect in his book.

Don
 

ZenKinG

Well-Known Member
#8
Dummy said:
The numbers are from the authors of the books on the various counts.
But how can Wong or others have the numbers be different? Did they run each sim with a different number of trials or something?
 

ZenKinG

Well-Known Member
#9
DSchles said:
Wong's numbers for surrendering vs. 8 and 9 for S17 and H17 are identical in every respect in his book.

Don
If you go on Casino Verite, the numbers are different. So either Norm copied them down wrong or i dont know.

For example on H17, 17v8 is +19 to surrender and on S17 for 17v8 it's +20

Another example is on H17, 13v8 is + 15 to surrender and on S17 for 13v8 it's +16.

H17, 13v9 is +10 to surrender and on S17, it's +11. Makes no sense
 

DSchles

Well-Known Member
#10
ZenKinG said:
If you go on Casino Verite, the numbers are different. So either Norm copied them down wrong or i dont know.

For example on H17, 17v8 is +19 to surrender and on S17 for 17v8 it's +20

Another example is on H17, 13v8 is + 15 to surrender and on S17 for 13v8 it's +16.

H17, 13v9 is +10 to surrender and on S17, it's +11. Makes no sense
Write to him.

Don
 

ZenKinG

Well-Known Member
#12
After looking at Wong's charts, don is correct, wong used the same numbers for H17 and S17. The problem is wong used composition indices and norm seemed to just pick whichever number he wanted to balance it out. For example, if the composition index was 10-6 v 7 is +13 and 9-7 v 7 is +11, norm would use +12 for the casino verite index chart.

With that being said, that still doesn't explain why norm didnt use the same number for h17 and s17 from wong's charts. My question for you don is which number should I use from these charts. If Norm has +19 for H17 and +20 for S17, should I just keep it as +19 for both of them or +20 for both of them. And for another example if norm used +15 for 13v8 for H17 and +16 for 13v8 on S17, which one should I use for the both of them. My instincts tell me to use the lower number to make it more risk averse, but I'd like to know your opinion. I know this is peanuts in terms of EV, but I just like to know the 'correct' answer when it comes to these things or at least the best possible answer.
 
#15
ZenKinG said:
I know this is peanuts in terms of EV, but I just like to know the 'correct' answer when it comes to these things or at least the best possible answer.
The "correct and best possible answer" is ...
... it does not f**king matter!
 

BJgenius007

Well-Known Member
#16
xengrifter said:
The "correct and best possible answer" is ...
... it does not f**king matter!
Any index higher than +15 (or +12 IMO) can be ignored and you can just use Basic Strategy because they happen so rarely. The only exception is vs dealer up card 10.
 
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