Splitting 8's against 10

Z

ZeeBabar

Banned
#1
#1
The other day, with HiLo TC at +2, DD game, after 2nd round to 2 players, and a $125 bet out, I received a pair of 8's against a 10. I think I erred.

I split the 8's. Got another 8, split it too. Ended up with an 18, a bust (got a 5, hit, busted) and a 19 ( got an Ace). Dealer had another 10 and I lost all three hands.

I am inclined to believe that in the situation, I should have just stood on the pair of 8's. What is a correct move?
 
S

Spyros Acebos

Active Member
#2
#2
Surrender was first decision, if available.

I have read many posts on other forum in which APs have stated that they treat 8-8 v. T, akin to a 16 v. T. Some stand on that hand, when TC equal to, or greater than zero. Others stand on all 16 hands versus Dealer 10 upcard.
 
M

Meistro

Well-Known Member
#3
#3
You made the correct move to split from the perspective of expected value. There is an index for standing 88 v T and it is fairly high. I want to say +6 but it could even be as high as +8. If surrender is an option you should surrender the hand at a relatively low + true count, I think +1 or higher.
 
Ryemo

Ryemo

Well-Known Member
#4
#4
Using Zen Count, I'm supposed to NOT split 8,8 vs X at TC +16 or higher (which is almost at a 5% edge). That would be almost equivalent to a TC +11 for Hi Lo. So I would say split is the correct play. You weren't even close to that index at +2.

Zee, had you won the hand, would you still question the play? I know I've seen you make this identical post in the past on a different site. I believe you received good advice back then. Hopefully this time around, you'll actually retain the information.
 
sagefr0g

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#5
#5
don't listen to me, haven't played much bj in quite a while, or even concerned myself about it, much.
that said, i tend to go with a combination of Spyros Acebos and Meistro's answers. with a bit of a lean towards Spyros's take on it, being as i'm so risk averse. seems like ploppy reasoning though :rolleyes: but on the other hand, i'd be torn to just go with illustrious 18, split them suckers and suck it up, lol.
far as explicit index charts for your game and 8,8 vs 10 up, i searched my files, some books and the internet and wasn't able to find anything explicit.:mad:
there must be something explicit on the hand at that TC (after all there are hundreds of indices), just couldn't find it in a reasonable time frame, sorry.
i can understand why you may be repetitively asking this question, if no one has produced and explicit index number, as an answer from a math study of some sort.
edit:
below is ev for splitting vs standing, problem is, it's for a six deck s17 game
88vs10-jpg.8972
 
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Z

ZeeBabar

Banned
#6
#6
Ryemo said:
Using Zen Count, I'm supposed to NOT split 8,8 vs X at TC +16 or higher (which is almost at a 5% edge). That would be almost equivalent to a TC +11 for Hi Lo. So I would say split is the correct play. You weren't even close to that index at +2.

Zee, had you won the hand, would you still question the play? I know I've seen you make this identical post in the past on a different site. I believe you received good advice back then. Hopefully this time around, you'll actually retain the information.
Click to expand...
My recollection is that at some high counts, it's better to treat it as 16. Now, if you notice, I ended up re-splitting. Was that a good move? The re-splitting happens so infrequently on that hand against a 10 that perhaps, the first split might have been okay, the second might not.

Finally, what is wrong with asking a question on a new site? More opinions often help. If you remember the answers I received, at another site, what exactly were they? I think we can all benefit from being reminded as to when we might not split 8's and re split 8's.
 
sagefr0g

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#7
#7
here we go, a bit better ev table for double deck, S17doa & H17doa in that order below.
still no indices, but you get a better idea the ev difference, depending on staying or splitting, sorta thing.
just need one of these tables for a TC = 2 , lol

fordds17-h17-jpg.8973
 
Ryemo

Ryemo

Well-Known Member
#8
#8
ZeeBabar said:
My recollection is that at some high counts, it's better to treat it as 16. Now, if you notice, I ended up re-splitting. Was that a good move? The re-splitting happens so infrequently on that hand against a 10 that perhaps, the first split might have been okay, the second might not.

Finally, what is wrong with asking a question on a new site? More opinions often help. If you remember the answers I received, at another site, what exactly were they? I think we can all benefit from being reminded as to when we might not split 8's and re split 8's.
Click to expand...
Zee,

If the index is there, then execute. If not, then play basic strategy. Simple. Let's assume I split 10's vs 6 and the count is waaaaay above my index (+8). If I keep drawing 10's, then I will continue to re-split, as long as my count tells me to. Let's assume I split 10's to 3 hands and I catch another 10 on the 3rd hand, but my TC drops to +6... well then I obviously wouldn't split to the 4th hand because my index is no longer there, so I would just stand on my pat 20. Get it? This isn't a difficult concept.

Regarding the redundant nature of your questions, I believe you received some quality answers the last time you asked this very same question. I just don't understand the need to repeat the question over and over again across multiple forums.

And lastly... it's clear that you didn't even have a clue as to what the index for standing on 8,8 vs 10 was... so you did the right thing by falling back on basic strategy. If you aren't sure of the index, revert to BS. And just because you lost the hand doesn't mean anything. Quit thinking in terms of short-term results and start thinking in terms of long-term EV.
 
M

Meistro

Well-Known Member
#10
#10
" The re-splitting happens so infrequently on that hand against a 10 that perhaps, the first split might have been okay, the second might not."

This is fuzzy logic. If the first split is good then the second split is good, unless the TC has changed in between.
 
M

Meistro

Well-Known Member
#12
#12
Pair indexes are in general less important to learn anyway since pairs occur less frequency than other holdings but it is a trivial matter to increase the number of index plays which you know; just memorize 2 more each day.
 
sagefr0g

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#13
#13
the guys (kc) software, blackjack game and probability computer from this link: https://www.blackjackinfo.com/community/threads/splitting-8s-vs-dealer-10.19577/#post-198265
is great and could probably fairly precisely come up with the index # zeebar inquires about.
problem is, i'm not sure if his software is still available. i have it some where, but where :confused:
edit: i found the software and it can not in fact produce an index #, only specific ev's for specif combinations of hands.
 
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sagefr0g

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#18
#18
ZeeBabar said:
MO game, H17, noRSA but all other standard rules, about .5 deck cut off.
Click to expand...
probably i should know this, but what does MO game mean? also not sure what standard rules signifies.
but, also was wondering was it a double on any, double on 10,11 only, or double on 9 thru 11 only or double hard hands only, was doubling after splitting allowed, also how many times was splitting allowed.
 
Ryemo

Ryemo

Well-Known Member
#19
#19
sagefr0g said:
probably i should know this, but what does MO game mean? also not sure what standard rules signifies.
but, also was wondering was it a double on any, double on 10,11 only, or double on 9 thru 11 only or double hard hands only, was doubling after splitting allowed, also how many times was splitting allowed.
Click to expand...
MO = Missouri

If I had to guess, sounds like Zee was playing at one of my old stomping grounds in St Louis :). The rules for the game I believe he's referring: DOA, DAS, H17. If he was playing at the place that I'm thinking of, I can say that casino has gotten real sweaty lately. I know a lot of people who've been counter-measured there just recently. I myself have not played there in many months though and probably won't for a very long time either...
 
Z

ZeeBabar

Banned
#20
#20
Ryemo, I don't play MO very often because Ai am closer to MS and IN these days. You have it right and those are the rules.

BJ play at the old popular one is quite a bit down and they may lighten up. Hollywood is now offering the same game at a couple of tables. I think they go by lifetime results and those who play rated get away easier.
 
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