What is so important about 25 seconds...

[socal_bj]

I've read this in books that a requirement for an AP player is to count down a deck in 25 seconds. I do this drill using pairs of cards (two at a time as there's no way you can count down a deck one card at a time in 25 seconds).

But I still think 25 seconds is too fast especially if you use Zen or level 3 and not a level 1 system.

Using Zen, I can count down a deck in 32 to 35 seconds. When I first started counting cards I could only do 40 to 45 seconds but it did not stop me from getting out and plying my skills.

Now I can glance at a table and cancel out cards quickly. When dealer has blackjack (Ace is hole card) people start throwing in their cards in disgust and with five other players at the table I can still glance at all the cards and cancel them. I can also be talking to someone pause mid sentence, update the running counting, and finish my sentence without missing a beat. But when I time myself on counting down one deck it is still about 30 to 32 seconds at best.

So I can't count down a deck in 25 seconds but I think I'm a pretty good card counter in live play; it doesn't hurt me at all. Why do the books have this 25 second criteria? Even if I flip over two cards at a time as fast as I can without even looking at them, it still takes me 20 seconds to do it. I think 25 seconds is unreasonable and would discourage newbies.

I'm trying to train someone to count cards to build a team and increase my win rate. I think I will tell my trainee to shoot for 40 seconds because this is more reasonable. Any comments?

 

[zengrifter]

But I still think 25 seconds is too fast especially if you use Zen or level 3 and not a level 1 system.

Using Zen, I can count down a deck in 32 to 35 seconds.

Too slow. zg

 

[bjcardcounter]

I've read this in books that a requirement for an AP player is to count down a deck in 25 seconds. I do this drill using pairs of cards (two at a time as there's no way you can count down a deck one card at a time in 25 seconds).

But I still think 25 seconds is too fast especially if you use Zen or level 3 and not a level 1 system.

Using Zen, I can count down a deck in 32 to 35 seconds. When I first started counting cards I could only do 40 to 45 seconds but it did not stop me from getting out and plying my skills.

Any comments?

Hello, how do you count down a deck. Do you take each card from the deck and throw it down at the table. Or do you take 2 cards and count it? Of you spread the cards and count?

 

[socal_bj]

Hello, how do you count down a deck. Do you take each card from the deck and throw it down at the table. Or do you take 2 cards and count it? Of you spread the cards and count?

I take two cards at at time and throw them down. Just taking two cards at a time and throwing them down without looking or counting the cards can take 20 seconds to do.

 

[tthree]

Speed thrills or kills

You need to pick a dealer for your speed that you can count accurately. Accuracy is the important thing. You can control the pace by mulling over a decision with a fast dealer. Pros like speed because to them time is money. I think being to fast could make you stand out, others don't believe the pit thinks you can count that fast so it is good cover. If you can't keep up with the game find a different table.

 

[Finrod]

Not throwing them down

When I count down a deck, I just pass the cards (usually two at a time) from my left hand to my right hand using my left thumb to push them to the right and my right index finger to help pull them over. The deck never seperates so you start with a full deck in your left hand and end with a full deck in your right hand. I believe those that are reporting times under 25 seconds are doing it this way because very little time is spent actually moving your hands, cards etc.

As an alternative, I do sometimes practice by laying down cards one at time simulating 3 or 4 hands of blackjack and scooping them up as soon as the last one was laid down. This simulates getting a table count at a glance which is really the best way to do it at the tables. I usually don't time myself in this situation, just try and scoop as fast as I deal. As with counting down any deck, I hold out three cards which I use as a checksum once I have dealt and scooped the entire deck.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

...I'm trying to train someone to count cards to build a team and increase my win rate. I think I will tell my trainee to shoot for 40 seconds because this is more reasonable. Any comments?

Yes. The way you practice counting cards in a casino is by counting cards in a casino. No drill can substitute.

This is not to say you shouldn't try counting down a deck just to get familiar with the system tags. Bury a card, count the remaining 51, and predict what the tag is of the buried card. When you are right 3 times in a row, you're done counting down decks. Find a nondescript $5 or $10 table, flat bet, use as many indices as you know or dare, give them your players card, order a drink if you drink, and practice that way.

 

[Friendo]

Fan them, and vary the size of the clumps

Just fan them: pass them from one hand to the other, counting 2, 3, 4, or more at a time. I do 2-, 3-, or 4-card groups.

Somebody, probably FLASH1296, mentioned counting clumps of random or varying sizes. Try pulling 2 cards, then 3 cards, then 2 cards ... or doing 2-3-4-2-3-4 over and over again.

I think that counting down decks is a drill with some use, but not that much beyond a competence check, once your down to 25 seconds. You have to be good at counting down decks to count cards, but beyond 25 seconds, there's not much return on any time invested in it. The one exception for me seems to be pulling random clumps, as I do with a six-deck stack. That one has made a difference because it's so confusing that it puts things on a more subconscious level.

Lately my speed for a deck his dropped to 16 seconds. That was after a period of extensive play at the tables.

 

[socal_bj]

Ok, I tried the fanning method and it helps. I can do it in 26 seconds easily. Thanks!

 

[Eye of the Tiger]

Too slow. zg

Have you ever been dealt playing heads up against the dealer 6 rounds in 25 seconds or less in a single hand held game I don't think so. So what is the point ?

 

[mikeyd]

I practice counting with 6 decks since I usually play 6 decks.
I start with the cards face up, and count them 2 at a time.
No need to waste time & effort turning the cards over.
Using 6 decks also gets me familiar with how high or low count can go,
and gives me practice at higher running counts which I would not get
if counting 1 deck.

 

[Jack_Black]

I take two cards at at time and throw them down. Just taking two cards at a time and throwing them down without looking or counting the cards can take 20 seconds to do.

urdoinitrong. 25sec speed is for counting cards one at a time.

 

[blackjack avenger]

Its 30 Seconds

30 for one card at a time and I think 15 seconds for fanning a deck. Then 2 & 3 card combinations. Each of these drills need to be done for 10 straight decks. Also, one could place cards on a table and practice scanning. Finally, all drills could be done while being distracted. Thirty seconds is just a convenient number, a more applicable number would be 26. These are just suggestions, the idea is to make practice hard and overlearn for preparing for the distracting casino environment.

 

[kewljason]

I have said before that this method is overrated. It doesn't simulate actual play at all. I practice by dealing out hands to myself as well as by computer simulated hands, both of which much more closely resemble actual play. I have never counted down a deck in my life and probably would be much slower than most players here, but again that doesn't translate into the skill or speed at the table. I am more than adequate at the tables usually seeking out the fastest dealers I can find and rarely find one that I can't keep up with and on those rare occasions that I do, it is usually because it is late in the day and I may not be at the top of my game.

I equate counting down a deck to learning to hit a baseball by throwing it in the air and hitting it on the way down. This skill doesn't simulate actual play unless you are playing some inner-city version of baseball where the pitcher is on the roof of a building throwing the ball vertically down to the batter. :laugh: If this was some sort of indicator, then my grandfather would have been the next Ted Williams, because he used to whack the ball all over the field when I was a kid. :laugh:

For newer players speed isn't the most important thing. Accuracy trumps speed. And remember the player controls the speed of the game, not the dealer. A fast dealer and 2 fast players can only play as fast as the third, slowest player dictates. For newer players playing at mostly full low limit tables, speed isn't essential. The pace will be slow.

 

[zengrifter]

I take two cards at at time and throw them down. Just taking two cards at a time and throwing them down without looking or counting the cards can take 20 seconds to do.

Do the two at a time face up. BUT YES, counting them should take no longer than not counting them... so YOU are TOO SLOW. zg

 

[zengrifter]

I have said before that this method is overrated. It doesn't simulate actual play at all. I practice by dealing out hands to myself as well as by computer simulated hands, both of which much more closely resemble actual play.

I simulate game manually like this:
1. Set two cards aside face down
2. Deal dealer card faceup
3. Pull two cards face up for me
4. Play my hand
5. Play dealer hand
6. Go for speed
7. At end of deck check accuracy with #1 above

 

[pit15]

I gave up on counting but back when I tried it a few times I never had a problem keeping the count straight. I don't take my action until after I get the count straight, however long that takes.

Nobody has ever rushed me. Ploppies are perfectly happy to sit there and wait, and the dealers are perfectly happy to not have to deal cards.

If you're playing a heads up game, then you can take as long as you want. It's your game so you can do whatever you want. Some dealers WILL try to keep the game moving if someone's excessively slow, but not if it's just you at the table.

 

[Eye of the Tiger]

I have said before that this method is overrated. It doesn't simulate actual play at all. I practice by dealing out hands to myself as well as by computer simulated hands, both of which much more closely resemble actual play. I have never counted down a deck in my life and probably would be much slower than most players here, but again that doesn't translate into the skill or speed at the table. I am more than adequate at the tables usually seeking out the fastest dealers I can find and rarely find one that I can't keep up with and on those rare occasions that I do, it is usually because it is late in the day and I may not be at the top of my game.

I equate counting down a deck to learning to hit a baseball by throwing it in the air and hitting it on the way down. This skill doesn't simulate actual play unless you are playing some inner-city version of baseball where the pitcher is on the roof of a building throwing the ball vertically down to the batter. :laugh: If this was some sort of indicator, then my grandfather would have been the next Ted Williams, because he used to whack the ball all over the field when I was a kid. :laugh:

For newer players speed isn't the most important thing. Accuracy trumps speed. And remember the player controls the speed of the game, not the dealer. A fast dealer and 2 fast players can only play as fast as the third, slowest player dictates. For newer players playing at mostly full low limit tables, speed isn't essential. The pace will be slow.

Well said KJ. I always believed that real play is better then playing on a computer or flipping cards for speed. Like you said accuracy is the most important thing. Myself I have never timed myself or practiced flipping a deck. I do just perfectly fine no matter what the speed of the dealer.

 

[QFIT]

Have you ever been dealt playing heads up against the dealer 6 rounds in 25 seconds or less in a single hand held game I don't think so. So what is the point ?

The point is that when you are counting down a deck, 100% of your attention is on the cards. When you are in a casino, your mind is occupied and annoyed by many things. You need to practice at a far higher rate than the cards appear in a casino.

 

[Lonesome Gambler]

The point is that when you are counting down a deck, 100% of your attention is on the cards. When you are in a casino, your mind is occupied and annoyed by many things. You need to practice at a far higher rate than the cards appear in a casino.

THIS.

And although speed drills don't accurately reflect actual casino conditions, they do improve your speed in the casino. For a while, I was trying to hone my counting speed (although I've rarely had any issue keeping up in live casino conditions), and I was able to consistently get my 1-deck Hi-Lo speed down to under 14 seconds (average 12 seconds, best time 11 seconds) and my 6-deck speed down to under 2 minutes (if I recall, I believe my best time was around 1:30, but I was generally falling in the 1:50 area).

After that period of regular training, I found counting to be effortless, even more so than before. By training under circumstances that are considerably more extreme or difficult than you're actually encounter in live play, you can use your mental energy on the things that will actually make you more money, like paying attention to your surroundings.