When do casinos start backing people off?

[Lucky11]

I've recently started going about twice a week I've gone about half a dozen times now and only went bust once (so far) with only a 200-ish bankroll I've been making 150-225 consistently (20-60 mins) just playing the 25$ minimum I was just wondering when they start to back people off at tables? also whats your opinions on playing 50$ (minimums) for the average person? Thanks for your time guys

 

[SplitFaceDisaster]

I've recently started going about twice a week I've gone about half a dozen times now and only went bust once (so far) with only a 200-ish bankroll I've been making 150-225 consistently (20-60 mins) just playing the 25$ minimum I was just wondering when they start to back people off at tables? also whats your opinions on playing 50$ (minimums) for the average person? Thanks for your time guys

I don`t have a ton of experience like others on this board, but I think most of them would agree with me that those amounts aren`t enough for you to be even on their radar yet. Unless the casino you`re playing in is just really small or you`re sticking out like a sore thumb in some way. As for the $50 minimum, if you`re new to this then don`t even think about that yet. Even if you do have a large bankroll. I`m assuming you`ve already learned to count?

 

[Lucky11]

I don`t have a ton of experience like others on this board, but I think most of them would agree with me that those amounts aren`t enough for you to be even on their radar yet. Unless the casino you`re playing in is just really small or you`re sticking out like a sore thumb in some way. As for the $50 minimum, if you`re new to this then don`t even think about that yet. Even if you do have a large bankroll. I`m assuming you`ve already learned to count?

learning the basics 2-6 +1 type of deal but not using it yet Id imagine it matters more with progressive betting and more serious amounts I'm just using basic strategy for now also not sure what the best counting system is anyways although KISS2 looks pretty good out of all the ones Ive seen

 

[ZenKinG]

DO NOT worry about backoffs whem you're still a red chipper. The only problem with red chipping is although they wont kick you out, you burn your face to the bosses and surveillance and they learn who you are so by the time you graduate to green chips you're a marked man. Only time you'll get backed off at red chips will be if you're playing in a sweat shop dump, which there are many out there and it's not hard to tell when you first walk in there or see the table limits at 500 max and pit bosses hawking the game.

To answer the question, most casinos at least in PA from my experience, the hammer comes down around the 20k threshold of winning. Believe me, they know how much you're winning even if youre playing unrated unless you're ratholing a lot of small wins, but sometimes it becomes hard to rathole if you have stacks of greens after a good shoe.

With that being said, backoffs and heat are all situational and can come after any amount of hours or win total depending on a variety of circumstances. Maybe you ran into a sharp boss. Maybe the casino is cutting back after suffering some huge losses and being more aggressive in tolerance to counters. Maybe you're playing a dump that sweats the action, if so expect a backoff the very first day, or after a couple of back to back wins regardless of red, green, or black action. There isn't a one size fits all about how casinos react to counters and backoffs.

Nonetheless, backoffs are pretty much irrelevant, especially if you play really short sessions. If you play short sessions, just give that shift that you were backed off from 3 months or so and then just go back and try to avoid the same faces that gave you heat or the tap. If you play longer sessions, give that shift 6 months or so. If you were trespassed, just give it a year or so and then go back on another shift. Most trespasses in this country, if not all, but im guessing all of them, are without any legal authority and if they arrest you upon return, the case will just get thrown out in court and dismissed.

 

[JohnCrover]

The notion that casinos don't back off low stakes players is completely false in my experience. I have been told by higher stakes players things along the lines of "Oh, don't worry, if you're playing at that level they won't back you off." FALSE. If you're playing small stakes they won't look as closely but once they know they're losing money against you they will not book your action.
That's my 2 cents, I clearly can't speak for every casino in the world but I can speak for damn near every single one I have ever played at.

 

[DSchles]

The notion that casinos don't back off low stakes players is completely false in my experience. I have been told by higher stakes players things along the lines of "Oh, don't worry, if you're playing at that level they won't back you off." FALSE. If you're playing small stakes they won't look as closely but once they know they're losing money against you they will not book your action.
That's my 2 cents, I clearly can't speak for every casino in the world but I can speak for damn near every single one I have ever played at.

I agree. If I could name a single piece of advice and a single comment that are made 20 times a day on all the boards and that I have always disagreed with 100%, it's that: 1) If you play for small stakes, forget about all cover. Just do whatever the hell you want because no one gives a shit about you. Blatantly FALSE. And 2) Even if the casino knows you're counting, if you're a red chipper, they'll still welcome you with open arms. That notion is aberrational. The minute a casino knows you're counting and winning their money systematically, if you think they won't back you off, you're delusional. Casinos aren't charitable institutions, and they don't exist to be lenient to low-stakes counters.

Don

 

[LC Larry]

Exactly!!

 

[ZenKinG]

The notion that casinos don't back off low stakes players is completely false in my experience. I have been told by higher stakes players things along the lines of "Oh, don't worry, if you're playing at that level they won't back you off." FALSE. If you're playing small stakes they won't look as closely but once they know they're losing money against you they will not book your action.
That's my 2 cents, I clearly can't speak for every casino in the world but I can speak for damn near every single one I have ever played at.

My post was to be read with 'in general'. IN GENERAL , only the sweatshops will back off a red chipper. Of course not every store in the country has a brain and even if they're a big place, they still might back you off, but with that being said, for you to attract any attention with red chipping to get backed off at anywhere but a sweatshop, you're doing it all wrong. Regarding cover, ANYONE who uses cover whether its red, green, or black chips, is already on the wrong path. If you need to rely on cover, you're once again doing it all wrong. Nonetheless, you should not be spending many hours red chipping blackjack. Practice at home on software such as Casino Verite, then get a 'feel' for the casino by putting in maybe 50 hours red-chipping, and then start playing at the least light green. Otherwise you're just burning up your face for no reason at all.

 

[DSchles]

"Regarding cover, ANYONE who uses cover whether its red, green, or black chips, is already on the wrong path. If you need to rely on cover, you're once again doing it all wrong."

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but my view is diametrically opposed from yours. And, telling newer players that they need no cover is an irresponsible remark.

Don

 

[ZenKinG]

"Regarding cover, ANYONE who uses cover whether its red, green, or black chips, is already on the wrong path. If you need to rely on cover, you're once again doing it all wrong."

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but my view is diametrically opposed from yours. And, telling newer players that they need no cover is an irresponsible remark.

Don

You seem to only be seeing it from one angle, which is the backing off route and that they wont get rid of you. What about the low hourly of a red chipper? Do you really want to advocate cover to a red chipper who's only making minimum wage with the addition of variance that blackjack inevitably brings? That's why I dont advocate cover to red chippers. Not only will they not bother you, but why cut into your small hourly win rate using costly cover?

Not to mention, there's also a 3rd reason to not use cover, which I have mentioned many times before. If you ever get pegged by a casino, it will be because of you moving your money with the count and not bonehead plays that you make. Surveillance and pit bosses are not trained to look for that as many dont even know basic strategy. The only plays that will stand out for them are splitting 10s and doubling A9, which may raise eyebrows, BUT only if you're betting big at that time or betting much more than you were previously betting. Go split tens and double A9 with a minimum bet out and see if they care. That proves that cover plays are not what pegs you.

Cover is costly and a waste of time. I advocate playing aggressively, backcounting, short sessions, ratholing and only playing shoe games. That's where the money and longevity is, especially these days. Heads up play is over-rated. You dont necessarily get more rounds per hour playing heads up than people think and all you're doing is exposing yourself with huge spreads, which is the number thing these droned out pit bosses and surveillance are taught to look for. Even if you get more rounds per hour, you're playing at a lower edge, SCORE, and higher N0. If you backcount the right way, not only will you increase longevity, but you can get away with higher bet sizes and a higher EV.

It's almost impossible for a casino to peg you if you combine short sessions with backounting, ratholing, and staying within tolerance levels. If you're betting huge amounts over 2x500, then you might get pegged just because of the 'attention' you've caused such as after big wins that will get you pegged on a tape review, but by backcounting you still will last longer wonging in with 2x100 - 2x500 than if you play heads up at 1x25 - 2x500. Red flags will just go off if a pit boss sees you spreading like that. That's why I keep it under 2x250 to also stay within most casino tolerance levels. If you really must play heads up, you should be wonging out aggressively at -1, in which you will only need a moderate 1-8 spread to beat the game handsomely, which will increase longevity and every other metric compared to the heads up play all approach. I try to combine both approaches, but I mostly backcount.

 

[GuyIncognito]

You seem to only be seeing it from one angle, which is the backing off route and that they wont get rid of you. What about the low hourly of a red chipper? Do you really want to advocate cover to a red chipper who's only making minimum wage with the addition of variance that blackjack inevitably brings? That's why I dont advocate cover to red chippers. Not only will they not bother you, but why cut into your small hourly win rate using costly cover?

Not to mention, there's also a 3rd reason to not use cover, which I have mentioned many times before. If you ever get pegged by a casino, it will be because of you moving your money with the count and not bonehead plays that you make. Surveillance and pit bosses are not trained to look for that as many dont even know basic strategy. The only plays that will stand out for them are splitting 10s and doubling A9, which may raise eyebrows, BUT only if you're betting big at that time or betting much more than you were previously betting. Go split tens and double A9 with a minimum bet out and see if they care. That proves that cover plays are not what pegs you.

Cover is costly and a waste of time. I advocate playing aggressively, backcounting, short sessions, ratholing and only playing shoe games. That's where the money and longevity is, especially these days. Heads up play is over-rated. You dont necessarily get more rounds per hour playing heads up than people think and all you're doing is exposing yourself with huge spreads, which is the number thing these droned out pit bosses and surveillance are taught to look for. Even if you get more rounds per hour, you're playing at a lower edge, SCORE, and higher N0. If you backcount the right way, not only will you increase longevity, but you can get away with higher bet sizes and a higher EV.

It's almost impossible for a casino to peg you if you combine short sessions with backounting, ratholing, and staying within tolerance levels. If you're betting huge amounts over 2x500, then you might get pegged just because of the 'attention' you've caused such as after big wins that will get you pegged on a tape review, but by backcounting you still will last longer wonging in with 2x100 - 2x500 than if you play heads up at 1x25 - 2x500. Red flags will just go off if a pit boss sees you spreading like that. That's why I keep it under 2x250 to also stay within most casino tolerance levels. If you really must play heads up, you should be wonging out aggressively at -1, in which you will only need a moderate 1-8 spread to beat the game handsomely, which will increase longevity and every other metric compared to the heads up play all approach. I try to combine both approaches, but I mostly backcount.

Why do you make the distinction of calling costly bad plays 'cover' but not the techniques you laid out? I think of cover as anything you do to make them think you are just a regular gambler. Wouldn't short sessions, ratholing, only shoes and backcounting all be forms of cover too?

I was intrigued by your view that no player should need cover but was kind of disappointed with your elaboration because it just seems you refuse to lose profits to cover and employ other means instead.

 

[Hell'nBack]

Cover should be Omitted for red and green chippers.

 

[Tater]

If I had the chance to do all again, I would never play a red chip game or in a dump. 1.) The pit aren't exactly the sharpest tacks in the box or they wouldn't be working in a dump. Guess what happens when they graduate to a better job? They remember you and use that information against you to climb the ladder faster. 2.) With the tools available today, there is no reason you cannot be a decent player before you ever sit at a table. 3.) Make them pay to watch your play. Been seen not heard. Been seen as little as possible. You shouldn't be afraid of a green chip or a black chip table. They should fear you if you've developed your game. But again, don't give them a reason to back you off.

 

[GuyIncognito]

If I had the chance to do all again, I would never play a red chip game or in a dump. 1.) The pit aren't exactly the sharpest tacks in the box or they wouldn't be working in a dump. Guess what happens when they graduate to a better job? They remember you and use that information against you to climb the ladder faster. 2.) With the tools available today, there is no reason you cannot be a decent player before you ever sit at a table. 3.) Make them pay to watch your play. Been seen not heard. Been seen as little as possible. You shouldn't be afraid of a green chip or a black chip table. They should fear you if you've developed your game. But again, don't give them a reason to back you off.

I respectfully disagree. Books, simulators and practice should definitely be done prior to first stepping into a casino but I've found no better way to lock in memories and train for counting than a casino environment. Back counting a fast dealer will hone your skills in a way no amount of practice alone ever will. Let's face it most people get the blackjack bug and start learning when they are young and so almost always have a small underfunded bankroll. I'm really happy I made all my big learning errors with red chips.

I see your advice as being possibly superior in longevity but less pragmatic with the reality that people want to start playing and learning as they go and probably won't have a green chip worthy bankroll. I don't know if I have a generic face or it's because I stayed away for a few years and grew a beard but no pit bosses have ever recognized me from my red chip days and even if they did they wouldnt have pegged me as a counter but just a player that was learning and making some bad plays like splitting tens.

 

[Tater]

Guy: Looking back. Every back off, 86, or strange thing that happened was either in a small casino, small town, and/or red chip table.
Acquiring a green chip worthy bankroll is going to take discipline, patience, hard work, and fire in the old hindparts for a few years for most young people. It's no different in blackjack. Those with entitlement issues may find themselves very disappointed. It may well be the most difficult challange of my life and I've been in some tough jobs few could do or would do if they could. But this is the only endeavor where you get fired for excellence.

The memory for me was couple instances where pit bosses who had bounced me from a red chip dump (for doing practically nothing) found employment in the better places. They made my life miserable for awhile with the glaring, whispering, and intimidation tactics. But I finally called them out because I was playing a very tame game and didn't appreciate their illiteracy to know the difference. I do not recommend anyone do this, but fact is, they're now gone and I'm still welcomed.

Hopefully, my learning errors are made at home and my money is made in the casino. In the words of Peter Griffen. The one thing I hate to learn is a lesson.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Guy: Looking back. Every back off, 86, or strange thing that happened was either in a small casino, small town, and/or red chip table.
Acquiring a green chip worthy bankroll is going to take discipline, patience, hard work, and fire in the old hindparts for a few years for most young people. It's no different in blackjack. Those with entitlement issues may find themselves very disappointed. It may well be the most difficult challange of my life and I've been in some tough jobs few could do or would do if they could. But this is the only endeavor where you get fired for excellence.

The memory for me was couple instances where pit bosses who had bounced me from a red chip dump (for doing practically nothing) found employment in the better places. They made my life miserable for awhile with the glaring, whispering, and intimidation tactics. But I finally called them out because I was playing a very tame game and didn't appreciate their illiteracy to know the difference. I do not recommend anyone do this, but fact is, they're now gone and I'm still welcomed.

Hopefully, my learning errors are made at home and my money is made in the casino. In the words of Peter Griffen. The one thing I hate to learn is a lesson.

Yours is certainly stealthier advice that would serve a disciplined player well for a long professional career. I'm glad the douche bros were shown the door and you are still welcome there. Did they ever back you off at the better place or did they just whisper and glare?

My red chip days were spent in a very nice and crowded casino which offered a ton of cover. I would have to spend a great deal of time just waiting for a seat to open up. This gave me a lot time back counting for practice. Right away my entire mental method of summing the running count shifted from the way I was doing it during practice. I bought a shoe and 8 decks of cards and began practicing with actual hands but it still wasn't quite the same and now I don't even bother. I find nothing is better than the real thing. I just do back counting as a warm up after any major time off but I find counting to be like riding a bike, once you've known how it doesn't take long to get it back.

 

[Tater]

I actually sort of backed myself off. I said something along the lines of refusal to play under the intimidation tactics of these "new" employees. It's bush league and doesn't belong in a casino with class. One had my chips colored up and was standing in front of my chair when I returned from the restroom. I was spreading one to two hands at $5 to $15 for chrissake. Actually, the only reason I was playing in the dump in the first place was because the dealer was a "hottie." The other dork, at the other dump, kept coming over to the table to count the tray. After the 3rd time in about 15 minutes, I joked it might be easier and faster to count my chips. I'm up $40. Evidently, he didn't think it was funny. But the dealer laughed. When he did it at the better place, I raised a helluva stink. Slowing down the game? WTF? Is this how we are treating all patrons now? etc,etc. He got his ass chewed.

 

[GuyIncognito]

I actually sort of backed myself off. I said something along the lines of refusal to play under the intimidation tactics of these "new" employees. It's bush league and doesn't belong in a casino with class. One had my chips colored up and was standing in front of my chair when I returned from the restroom. I was spreading one to two hands at $5 to $15 for chrissake. Actually, the only reason I was playing in the dump in the first place was because the dealer was a "hottie." The other dork, at the other dump, kept coming over to the table to count the tray. After the 3rd time in about 15 minutes, I joked it might be easier and faster to count my chips. I'm up $40. Evidently, he didn't think it was funny. But the dealer laughed. When he did it at the better place, I raised a helluva stink. Slowing down the game? WTF? Is this how we are treating all patrons now? etc,etc. He got his ass chewed.

If he was sweating you hard at those levels I wonder if he was also sweating actual gamblers that happen to get lucky and win? Was he bugging other people?

I've never come across a pit boss that didn't at least act as if they were on my side and hoping for me to win. It's usually hollow because it's meant for gamblers and deep down they think you're about to lose your money. They all have the same persona that their employer makes too much money already and doesn't share it with them so they want you to take it. That's the common thread I've noticed.

I tend to do longer sessions since all the casinos near me are at least an hours drive from me and all in opposite direction of each other. I just play the role of a gambler and am generally chummy with them. My longevity on the tables is noticed but easily explained because I'm the one that doesn't play side bets. One pit boss and I joked about how we were just passing the same money back and forth, he said he had tracked me at up 500 or down 500 all day. It looked like I had broken even when I left. In reality I took away 1500. I make up shit like my dad told me to bet more at the end of shoes if the flow is good. Fuck it we came here to gamble right? I'm splitting these tens! It's easy enough to palm my winnings while the other players fill the tray and I make sure they notice my losses. I've never received anything close to sweat. I think any that might recognize me think I'm a sad addict down money.

 

[Tater]

If he was sweating you hard at those levels I wonder if he was also sweating actual gamblers that happen to get lucky and win? Was he bugging other people?
.

He was allowed one bullitt and had to keep it in his pocket. You know the type? LOL I'd say 98% of pit bosses and dealers are really good people. They have a job to do, family to raise, just like everyone else. Basically, I let the casino rats know about the new guy and bad news travels fast.

Knowing "I can" is better than them thinking "I will."

 

[Dummy]

Why do you make the distinction of calling costly bad plays 'cover' but not the techniques you laid out? I think of cover as anything you do to make them think you are just a regular gambler. Wouldn't short sessions, ratholing, only shoes and backcounting all be forms of cover too?.

Ratholing makes you look like a counter. Ploppies pocket chips all the time but they never sneak them into their pocket.
Back counting is the thing that makes you look the most like a counter. Lots of ploppies watch before deciding to join a game but they don't only join games with positive counts. It is very easy for the casinos to confirm. Casinos don't tolerate backcounting at all. If you want to get barred, flyered and black-booked get caught backcounting. Looking like a ploppy is about understanding the subtleties. These things you seem to think are cover would be the last nail in your coffin. Suspicion would be confirmed by these actions.