Are There Any "Ghosts" Out There? – Page 2

  • creeping panther

    Sp

    PM me if you are interested in an opportunity

    CP

  • zengrifter

     

    Quote: zengrifter said:
    “Multiple” cases went to the NV Supreme Court? That would make HC etched in stone, I would think…
    But here is an example of casino lawyers STILL making an argument that “intentional” HC is still illegal cheating —

    Of course that’s what casino lawyers were doing back in the 70s (against us salamanders). zg

  • Sonny

     

    Quote: zengrifter said:
    But here is an example of casino lawyers STILL making an argument that “intentional” HC is still illegal cheating –

    Courts are like the internet – the facts can be crystal clear but people will still argue.

    -Sonny-

  • Sucker

     

    Quote: zengrifter said:
    “Multiple” cases went to the NV Supreme Court? That would make HC etched in stone, I would think…

    As far as I know, only one HC case went to the NV Supreme Court; the Einbinder-Dalben decision of 1983. The Supreme Court CLEARLY ruled that intentional holecarding is legal, as long as the HC’er uses no device, as long as he’s legally seated at the table, and as long as the information is available to anyone at the table. This landmark case did NOT address one way or another, whether or not ‘spooking’ is legal.

    As to the issue of actually being arrested for spooking – VERY doubtful. No one actually gets arrested for this. All they ever do is 86 you. To go into court and try to PROVE that someone is spooking is just WAY too difficult, short of an outright confession. And even THEN, they would first have to establish whether or not spooking IS cheating. But this is why spooking is still in the gray area of the law – no one has ever been charged with it yet.

  • johndoe

     

    Quote: Sucker said:
    As far as I know, only one HC case went to the NV Supreme Court; the Einbinder-Dalben decision of 1983. The Supreme Court CLEARLY ruled that intentional holecarding is legal, as long as the HC’er uses no device, as long as he’s legally seated at the table, and as long as the information is available to anyone at the table. This landmark case did NOT address one way or another, whether or not ‘spooking’ is legal.

    Just wondering: What if the information was only available to one or two of the seats, rather than the whole table?

  • revrac

     

    Quote: johndoe said:
    Just wondering: What if the information was only available to one or two of the seats, rather than the whole table?

    That same point came up in the case or at least in one of the ones i’ve read about. I believe they basically glossed over it saying, its up to the casino to protect the HC (actually part of the rules) and train their dealers properly.

  • snorky

     

    I’ve finally spot an opportunity at a game and watched for a good few minutes at different angles. I went to express my excitement of the opportunity to my friend and pondered the ethics and risk I’m taking if I were to play the game.

    To my surprise when I went back to the game (and all others of the same sort), the house waited for the player to make his/her bet before picking their cards out of the shuffle machine.

    This is surely counter measure unless there is another explanation. Did I expose myself?

  • tthree

     

    Quote: zengrifter said:

    Now I see that spooking MIGHT be “only” a gray area. zg

    It is not a gray area, it is a green area. Green for the spook team until they get caught and green for the desert in spooky valley after they get caught.

  • tthree

     

    Quote: Sucker said:
    As far as I know, only one HC case went to the NV Supreme Court; the Einbinder-Dalben decision of 1983. The Supreme Court CLEARLY ruled that intentional holecarding is legal, as long as the HC’er uses no device, as long as he’s legally seated at the table, and as long as the information is available to anyone at the table. This landmark case did NOT address one way or another, whether or not ‘spooking’ is legal.

    As to the issue of actually being arrested for spooking – VERY doubtful. No one actually gets arrested for this. All they ever do is 86 you. To go into court and try to PROVE that someone is spooking is just WAY too difficult, short of an outright confession. And even THEN, they would first have to establish whether or not spooking IS cheating. But this is why spooking is still in the gray area of the law – no one has ever been charged with it yet.

    Isn’t team play illegal. If it is, I don’t see how spooking can’t be considered team play.

  • Richard Munchkin

     

    Team play is NOT illegal.

  • zengrifter

     

    Quote: Sucker said:
    As far as I know, only one HC case went to the NV Supreme Court; the Einbinder-Dalben decision of 1983. The Supreme Court CLEARLY ruled that intentional holecarding is legal, as long as the HC’er uses no device, as long as he’s legally seated at the table, and as long as the information is available to anyone at the table. This landmark case did NOT address one way or another, whether or not ‘spooking’ is legal.

    Technically Tony was “first-basing”, but its still a HC play. zg

  • WRX

     

    Quote: tthree said:
    Isn’t team play illegal.

    Is this a troll? Are you seriously suggesting that team play of any kind at casino games is illegal? Your history at this site suggests more sophistication!

  • Nynefingers

     

    Quote: snorky said:
    I’ve finally spot an opportunity at a game and watched for a good few minutes at different angles. I went to express my excitement of the opportunity to my friend and pondered the ethics and risk I’m taking if I were to play the game.

    To my surprise when I went back to the game (and all others of the same sort), the house waited for the player to make his/her bet before picking their cards out of the shuffle machine.

    This is surely counter measure unless there is another explanation. Did I expose myself?

    This is standard. In most HC type plays, you are flat betting and altering your playing strategy, not altering your initial bet. Those kind of games happen too, but in my experience, the process you describe is completely normal for games that use a shuffle machine. I’m sure they were doing this before you left too and you just didn’t notice.

  • zengrifter

     

    Quote: WRX said:
    Is this a troll? Are you seriously suggesting that team play of any kind at casino games is illegal? Your history at this site suggests more sophistication!

    Some casinos, years back like Hilton, used to have table signage that read: “Any use of team play and/or signaling is against the rules and is considered illegal cheating by this establishment.” So would that make it so?

    Also, a teammate could be considered a “device” under the present Nevada device law. zg

  • tthree

     

    Quote: WRX said:
    Is this a troll? Are you seriously suggesting that team play of any kind at casino games is illegal? Your history at this site suggests more sophistication!

    It was a question. I know when I worked on a team the last thing we wanted was the casino to know about it. I didn’t ask why. Maybe it threatens comps. I just knew to keep it on the down low.

  • Wookets

     

    Quote: tthree said:
    It was a question. I know when I worked on a team the last thing we wanted was the casino to know about it. I didn’t ask why. Maybe it threatens comps. I just knew to keep it on the down low.

    Teams generally consist of APs, not ploppies. I’d guess that’s the reason casinos fear them, not comps. being threatened. What’s more scary than people that can beat you at your own game?

  • Bentley

    Please define spooking.

    Please define spooking. I’m confused as to its usage here.

  • Southpaw

     

    Quote: Bentley said:
    Please define spooking. I’m confused as to its usage here.

    I think what the two are doing in this video could be considered spooking:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYa1IsxGVuc

    Basically, the reader is not sitting at the table as the table that he is reading. He may be standing somewhere in the casino or sitting at a nearby table with an opportune angle.

  • Southpaw

     

    P.S.–After reading Bentley’s revival of this thread, I reread my OP and decided that it contains too much information. I think the only reason nobody complained about it is that few took the time to read it.

    IC&T and Sonny, please delete my OP if you get a moment.

    Spaw

  • Sonny

     

    Quote: Southpaw said:
    P.S.–After reading Bentley’s revival of this thread, I reread my OP and decided that it contains too much information. I think the only reason nobody complained about it is that few took the time to read it.

    IC&T and Sonny, please delete my OP if you get a moment.

    Spaw

    You got it. I kept a backup copy if you change your mind.

    -Sonny-

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