Multiparameter count and shuffle tracking..

  • PierceNation

    Multiparameter count and shuffle tracking..

    Whaddup,

    Anybody got any ideas/information/statistics on the pros/cons of using a multiparameter level count in conjunction with shuffle tracking?

    I know Hilo is suggested as it gives you a good representation of high to low card ratio, but would it be right to suggest that a true count of +3 is desirable regardless of what system is in use?

    Thanks for any light you may be able to shed

    Pierce

  • blackjack avenger

    overthinking

    What count do you use?
    How many hours have you played?

  • PierceNation

     

    Quote: blackjack avenger said:
    What count do you use?
    How many hours have you played?

    I use Hilo lite, for the purpose of shuffle tracking. However I would like to use something stronger for games that aren’t trackable so to speak. Do I

    1.Stick to Hilo
    2.Learn a better system for counting (Zen, HiOpt II) and use Hilo for trackable games
    3. Just use Zen/HiOptII for both counting and tracking?

  • blackjack avenger

    answer the question

    I can handle the truth

    How many hours have you played?

  • PierceNation

     

    With HiLo I haven’t played much over 100 hours..But I’m not really interested in variance possibilities I just want to know whether you can use a 2 level count for tracking because Snyder says you should stick with hi lo but doesn’t actually state why?

  • blackjack avenger

    multi tasking

    I really new the answer before you stated it. An experienced player would understand that hi Lo lite, with or without ST is sufficient.
    As one tries to do more complex tasks errors creep in.

    Hi Lo lite is fine
    Using it with ST is fine

    Using 2 counts is completely unnecessary.

    Learning a higher level count with ST adds a level of complexity that is unnecessary. With ST you are mostly tracking 10, A. So what does it matter what the tags are in a count? Or if you count the 7 & 9, which you don’t track.

    Master what you are doing before considering a higher level count. Perhaps 1,000 hrs, once you do this you will realize a higher level count is not necessary. However, if you are bored in a casino & are great with math, do what you want.

  • PierceNation

     

    I should point out that I quite comfortably used Zen for quite some time before I switched to HiLo for the purpose of learning ST, and your right, I am bored and I am good at maths so I guess its up to me and no your wrong I’m not a pro but I’m definately not inexperienced.

    If ST means I will have to sit through counts that go into huge negatives, I want a top notch PE. Time and motivation to practise to a high standard are not really two issues I need to worry about with my work.

    What I really wanted to know is if a level 2 count would not give an accurate ratio of 10s to low cards, thus making it less potent?

    If it makes no difference that’s fine, just wondered if anyone had any maths on it?

  • London Colin

     

    I don’t understand this debate.

    Higher level counts may well not be worthwhile in terms of their complexity (whether or not they are combined with the further mental tasks of shuffle tracking), but surely any balanced count is equally applicable to ST?

    Why assert that ST has a particular relationship to T,A versus 2,3,..6? Surely what is being tracked is advantage, as measured by any balanced count you care to use?

  • PierceNation

     

    Quote: London Colin said:
    Surely what is being tracked is advantage, as measured by any balanced count you care to use?

    Exactly my thoughts, the only reason I ask is due to the fact that Arnold Snyder suggests using HiLo, but does not outright say why.

    I guess its just for ease of use, and no other reason.

    As for higher level systems, I agree that there is not much to be gained from Betting Correlation, HOWEVER, PE is quite low on HILO. Surely when playing through very negative segments (as you would with ST) It makes sense to have as high a PE as possible? If it makes more sense to hit 15 v 4 at a certain TC, I want to know about it. I dont care how much work I have to put in.

  • HockeXpert

     

    Quote: PierceNation said:
    Exactly my thoughts, the only reason I ask is due to the fact that Arnold Snyder suggests using HiLo, but does not outright say why.

    I guess its just for ease of use, and no other reason.

    As for higher level systems, I agree that there is not much to be gained from Betting Correlation, HOWEVER, PE is quite low on HILO. Surely when playing through very negative segments (as you would with ST) It makes sense to have as high a PE as possible? If it makes more sense to hit 15 v 4 at a certain TC, I want to know about it. I dont care how much work I have to put in.

    ST with any balanced count will work. Snynder’s point is that using a level 2 or higher count will not yield any significant improvement, if any, when tracking. BC is far more important to a tracker than PE so if you give up any BC, you cannot make it up with a better PE or IC. Additionally, it is way more important to be a proficient tracker than to worry about the count used with it.

    Zen is ok for tracking but hi-lo is better.

  • PierceNation

     

    Thats fair enough. I go through my drills daily and can cut to within 3 cards on half deck segments every time now, so I am happy with the progress I am making with it, still got a while to go yet though.

    Quote: HockeXpert said:
    Zen is ok for tracking but hi-lo is better.

    Sorry if i’m missing the point, but when you say HiLo is better, do you mean easier? If Zen has a higher BC and PE surely it would be better to use Zen, providing you could be as accurate as you are with HiLo?

  • PierceNation

     

    You know what, **** it, ill just stick with HiLo the betting correlation is the same anyway.

  • HockeXpert

     

    Quote: PierceNation said:
    Sorry if i’m missing the point, but when you say HiLo is better, do you mean easier? If Zen has a higher BC and PE surely it would be better to use Zen, providing you could be as accurate as you are with HiLo?

    Zen has an ever so slightly lower bc than hi-lo. The biggest difference I see in the tags is the undervaluation of the ace in Zen. To me that is critical and it shows in the slightly higher bc for hi-lo.

  • zengrifter

     

    Quote: PierceNation said:
    Anybody got any ideas/information/statistics on the pros/cons of using a multiparameter level count in conjunction with shuffle tracking?

    You are confused – a multiparameter system is based on bi-valuate card value approximations.
    I think you mean multilevel count (ie, ZEN level-2, etc.) zg

  • zengrifter

     

    Quote: PierceNation said:
    I should point out that I quite comfortably used Zen for quite some time before I switched to HiLo for the purpose of learning ST, and your right, I am bored and I am good at maths so I guess its up to me and no your wrong I’m not a pro but I’m definately not inexperienced.

    If ST means I will have to sit through counts that go into huge negatives, I want a top notch PE. Time and motivation to practise to a high standard are not really two issues I need to worry about with my work.

    What I really wanted to know is if a level 2 count would not give an accurate ratio of 10s to low cards, thus making it less potent?

    If it makes no difference that’s fine, just wondered if anyone had any maths on it?

    ST with ZEN is fine. zg

  • Gramazeka

    For 2 player

    Team play 2 player.- Hi Lo+ST and Unbalanse Ten count+ST. Very very good result. This best that it is possible to think up.

  • PierceNation

     

    Quote: zengrifter said:
    I think you mean multilevel count (ie, ZEN level-2, etc.) zg

    Yes thats what I meant, sorry.

    Quote: zengrifter said:
    ST with ZEN is fine. zg

    Thanks, games can be hard enough in England as it is, so i’m trying to push for as high a skill level as possible.

    Pierce

  • AussiePlayer

     

    If you’re hell-bent on using a level 2 count, RPC has a BC of .99

  • PierceNation

     

    I thought it was a level 4? Or is that the RAPC..

    I’m trying to run some sims at the mo to see how a higher PE effects EV in the long run. If its negligible, I’ll stick with HiLo.

  • AussiePlayer

     

    Quote: PierceNation said:
    I thought it was a level 4? Or is that the RAPC..

    I’m trying to run some sims at the mo to see how a higher PE effects EV in the long run. If its negligible, I’ll stick with HiLo.

    HiLo would still be your best bet IMO, if however you did want to use a 2 level count, I would not compromise any BC for PE.

  • zengrifter

     

    Quote: AussiePlayer said:
    HiLo would still be your best bet IMO, if however you did want to use a 2 level count, I would not compromise any BC for PE.

    Brett Harris sims showed that ZEN edges out RPC on the UK ENHC game. zg

  • PierceNation

     

    It does seem as though Zen is the optimal choice, but it does have slightly lower BC..surely a difference of .96 to .97 is negligible enough to not lose any sleep over..?

    After all this is in conjunction with ST, following slugs as well as cutoffs. Although I appreciate what you are saying about PE been more important in pitch games (which don’t exist in the UK)..wouldnt the much higher PE counter act the slight loss of BC?

  • PierceNation

     

    Ok, so I’ve thought of an example to explain the worry I originally had with a multi level count.

    Lets say your tracking 2 half deck slugs, one of which has 3 extra ten cards, the other has 6 extra aces. The RC and therefore the TC is the same with Zen. Surely 6 aces are waaaay more valuable, and this would have shown in Hilo, where in Zen it does not.

    Just a thought

    Pierce

  • AussiePlayer

     

    Quote: PierceNation said:
    Ok, so I’ve thought of an example to explain the worry I originally had with a multi level count.

    Lets say your tracking 2 half deck slugs, one of which has 3 extra ten cards, the other has 6 extra aces. The RC and therefore the TC is the same with Zen. Surely 6 aces are waaaay more valuable, and this would have shown in Hilo, where in Zen it does not.

    Just a thought

    Pierce

    If you used a high BC count like HiLo or RPC where the Aces have the same tag value as the tens, then 6 the Aces would show up as twice as good as 3 tens.

  • PierceNation

     

    I think HiLo is coming out on top here, for use with ST anyway. Cheers for the help.

    Pierce

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