Auto Shuffle Popularity?

  • Dabucci

    Auto Shuffle Popularity?

    How popular are these auto shufflers becoming.. and how long do you think until all the casinos are using these for blackjack? Obviously they make it impossible to card count, so once they are used everywhere, will card counting die? Or will the shufflers die out, because I’ve heard they can sometimes stall the game.

  • Sonny

     

    The auto shufflers (ASMs) don’t affect card counting at all. Actually, they speed up the game which makes it more profitable for card counters. You’re thinking of the CSMs, which have not been as popular as expected. They are pretty expensive, fairly unreliable, unpopular amongst high rollers, and, of course, still beatable. Although some of the smaller casinos are using them, I don’t think the ones that get big action (or want to) are in a hurry to switch over.

    -Sonny-

  • Dabucci

     

    so what are CSMs? And what is the difference between these and ASMs?

    Thanks Sonny

  • Sonny

     

    Quote: Dabucci said:
    How can this be true? If once the hand is finished, the cards are placed back into the shuffler and all the cards are shuffled around, it makes it impossible to keep a count, because the cards have been put back into the deck, and are just as likely to come out again

    The auto shufflers (AMSs) don’t work that way. The dealer deals out of a shoe just like he normally would, except instead of hand-shuffling the cards he puts them into a machine that shuffles them. There is usually an extra set of cards in the machine that is already shuffled that he will use while the original set is being shuffled.

    The continuous shufflers (CSMs) are the machines that only deal a few hands before the dealer reinserts the cards. In that case the cards cannot really be counted unless the dealer doesn’t reinsert the cards for a long time. I think that is the machine you are talking about.

    -Sonny-

  • Ferretnparrot

     

    I think the ASMs still have a negetive effect on the game in the sense that offerring better penetration has less effect on the number of hands dealt per hour so they are less inticed to offer more beatable games, that in my opinion seems to be the trend with the ASMs while better pen is found in hand shuffled games

  • Mimosine

     

    Quote: Ferretnparrot said:
    I think the ASMs still have a negetive effect on the game in the sense that offerring better penetration has less effect on the number of hands dealt per hour so they are less inticed to offer more beatable games, that in my opinion seems to be the trend with the ASMs while better pen is found in hand shuffled games

    huh?

    i have never ever seen a correlation to pen = f ( ASM ) vs. f (hand shuffle).
    ASM’s allow more hands to be dealt per hour… are there any more dealers/counters on here who could discuss house policy on pen? ihate17? cardcounter?

  • ihate17

    Policy or possibility?

    Quote: Mimosine said:
    huh?

    i have never ever seen a correlation to pen = f ( ASM ) vs. f (hand shuffle).
    ASM’s allow more hands to be dealt per hour… are there any more dealers/counters on here who could discuss house policy on pen? ihate17? cardcounter?

    I do not know of any policy at a casino that required reduced pen because they installed ASM’s.
    At the same time it can follow that since nearly no time is killed shuffling that you could offer reduced pen in an ASM game and still deal just about as many hands per hour. So they can be used to the detriment of counters.

    ihate17

  • SystemsTrader

     

    Quote: Ferretnparrot said:
    I think the ASMs still have a negetive effect on the game in the sense that offerring better penetration has less effect on the number of hands dealt per hour so they are less inticed to offer more beatable games, that in my opinion seems to be the trend with the ASMs while better pen is found in hand shuffled games

    I have to agree with you on this, I have noticed casinos with ASMs tend to have poor pen compared to hand shuffled games. This is by no means fact but it is something I’ve noticed as well.

  • EasyRhino

     

    I also agree with the theory that an ASM could allow the casino to have worse penetration without as much of a “shuffle time penalty”. However, I haven’t seen a correlation in my limited personal experience.

  • blackchipjim

    asm vs hand shuffle

    I would care to differ on the oppinion they don’t make a difference. I happen to follow slugs of cards that are tens and use it to my advantage. I have had better sucess with hand shuffle than asm overall. Most casinos that hand shuffle are not efficient in shuffling. Asm were in my oppinion to increase the amount of hands dealt per hour and to thwart shuffle trackers. I perfer to play hand shuffled decks even though I play less hands I can still exploit my advantage. blackchipjim

  • Renzey

     

    Quote: ihate17 said:
    Since nearly no time is killed shuffling you could offer reduced pen in an ASM game and still deal just about as many hands per hour.

    The autoshuffler I timed took seven minutes to complete its shuffling routine. If the pen is too poor, and/or the dealer is too fast, the new setup won’t be ready when the cut card pops out of the shoe currently being dealt. Also consider the cost of leasing an autoshuffler when wondering if casinos might be just trying to “trade off” poorer pen with more setup exchanges — for time spent hand shuffling. I don’t know?

  • ihate17

    Just cut 2.5-3 decks and it takes care of 7 minutes

    Quote: Renzey said:
    The autoshuffler I timed took seven minutes to complete its shuffling routine. If the pen is too poor, and/or the dealer is too fast, the new setup won’t be ready when the cut card pops out of the shoe currently being dealt. Also consider the cost of leasing an autoshuffler when wondering if casinos might be just trying to “trade off” poorer pen with more setup exchanges — for time spent hand shuffling. I don’t know?

    Actually, it probably takes less time if you have a slow player at the table but all of this is conjecture on my part because I do not know of any casino policy that connects poor pen with ASM’s.
    The cost of the lease I am sure is figured against the increase of hands created by not shuffling. The salesman for shufflemaster will bring up that point in his presentation, something like, “your dealers spend X time shuffling but with our machine you will get Y extra hands instead of dead shuffle time and that will make the machine pay for itself easily.”

    Only later might some manager, who imagines counters everywhere, decide he could cut pen and not hurt the bottom line. Meanwhile in every place I have played against ASM’s, pen has been similar to pen in hand shuffled games. I would classify it as highly dealer dependent in most cases.

    ihate17

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