# Surrender Indices for H17

• mikeyd

Surrender Indices for H17

What index should be used to late surrender 17 vs A,
and to surrender 8,8 vs A for H17, 7/8?

According to Professional BJ, page 261, 17 should be
surrendered against A at TC +2 or lower,
and 8,8 should be surrendered vs A at TC of -5 or higher.

were what I expected except there was no index
for these two; that is, the CV demo said not to surrender.

Given my lack of technology skills, I could have messed up
in running CV, so I want to make sure I know the correct index.
Thanks for any input.

• Zero
Quote: mikeyd said:
What index should be used to late surrender 17 vs A,
and to surrender 8,8 vs A for H17, 7/8?

According to Professional BJ, page 261, 17 should be
surrendered against A at TC +2 or lower,
and 8,8 should be surrendered vs A at TC of -5 or higher.

What edition are you looking at? My 1994 edition has no such numbers. There is no index for surrendering 17 v A nor 8,8 v A on p 261 of my book.

Quote: mikeyd said:
were what I expected except there was no index
for these two; that is, the CV demo said not to surrender.

Given my lack of technology skills, I could have messed up
in running CV, so I want to make sure I know the correct index.
Thanks for any input.

No, you’ve got it right. There is no index for these two scenarios in CV’s Hi-Lo index table. You should not surrender.

0

• mikeyd

[QUOTE=Zero;262845]What edition are you looking at? My 1994 edition has no such numbers. There is no index for surrendering 17 v A nor 8,8 v A on p 261 of my book.

I have the 1994 edition. Appendix A, Table A2, High-Low, Four Decks, H17 on the 3rd page of this table, which is page 261 of my book, for Player’s Hand of 10-7 or 9-8, late surrender vs A shows index of 2*. Same page shows 8-8 vs A, index of -5.
Is this table not in your book?

• Zero
Quote: mikeyd said:
I have the 1994 edition. Appendix A, Table A2, High-Low, Four Decks, H17 on the 3rd page of this table, which is page 261 of my book, for Player’s Hand of 10-7 or 9-8, late surrender vs A shows index of 2*. Same page shows 8-8 vs A, index of -5.
Is this table not in your book?

It’s there. Appendix A, Table A2 (Continued), p261 (3rd page of Table A2): 10-7 and 9-8 have a blank under the “late” / “ace” column, 8-8 as well. Weird…

0

• 21forme

Look at Table 33 on p. 93.

• mikeyd
Quote: 21forme said:
Look at Table 33 on p. 93.

Right. Page 93 also has surrender 17 v A index at +2 or lower.
It also has index for surrender 8,8 v A as 4*, but based on
table on page 261, I think you ignore this if you can both buy
insurance and surrender, and thus should surrender at -5 or higher.
Do you read this the same way?

• 21forme

We’re talking LS, not ES, so there may be times when you buy INS and surrender.

Your INS index is always +3, regardless of your hand. So at +3, take INS. If the dealer has BJ, the hand is over. If not, then you surrender since TC<4. If TC<3, don't take INS, but surrender if there is no BJ and the play continues.

• mikeyd
Quote: 21forme said:
We’re talking LS, not ES, so there may be times when you buy INS and surrender.

Your INS index is always +3, regardless of your hand. So at +3, take INS. If the dealer has BJ, the hand is over. If not, then you surrender since TC<4. If TC<3, don't take INS, but surrender if there is no BJ and the play continues.

So if I understand this now, PBJ is saying to
late surrender 8,8 v A if TC is -5 thru +4.
Thus at +5 or higher, 8,8 should be split vs A.

• 21forme

Correct.

Don’t worry about the lower index of -5. In a shoe game, you should n’t be playing anywhere near that index. Time for a bathroom break or phone call.

• mikeyd

Question for QFIT-Possible Glitch in CV Demo

Norm,
I know you said you were taking a break from posting,
but I thought you might be interested in this question.

Is there a glitch in CV demo for H17, 7/8, DAS, LS, which
appears to say to not late surrender 17 v A or 8,8 v A?

According to Professional BJ, page 261, 17 should be
late surrendered against A at TC +2 or lower,
and 8,8 should be surrendered vs A at TC between -5 and +4.

• tthree

Isn’t surrender 17 v A a BS play for H17? I am still able to avoid this horrible rule. If I wanted to play it I would have to drive by many stores that offer only S17 in 2 states to get there.

• 21gunsalute
Quote: mikeyd said:
Norm,
I know you said you were taking a break from posting,
but I thought you might be interested in this question.

Is there a glitch in CV demo for H17, 7/8, DAS, LS, which
appears to say to not late surrender 17 v A or 8,8 v A?

According to Professional BJ, page 261, 17 should be
late surrendered against A at TC +2 or lower,
and 8,8 should be surrendered vs A at TC between -5 and +4.

He doesn’t have indices listed for those 2 situations for the Felt Count either.

• 21gunsalute
Quote: tthree said:
Isn’t surrender 17 v A a BS play for H17? I am still able to avoid this horrible rule. If I wanted to play it I would have to drive by many stores that offer only S17 in 2 states to get there.

Are you saying that surrender is a horrible rule?

• tthree
Quote: 21gunsalute said:
Are you saying that surrender is a horrible rule?

No silly H17.

• 21gunsalute
Quote: tthree said:
No silly H17.

Ah.

• 21forme
Quote: tthree said:
Isn’t surrender 17 v A a BS play for H17? I am still able to avoid this horrible rule. If I wanted to play it I would have to drive by many stores that offer only S17 in 2 states to get there.

Yes, it is a BS play. The index is to LS when TC<+2. 0 is < +2

I used to abhor H17, but I’ve gotten used to it. As a matter of fact, there are plenty of H17 games that are better (i.e., higher SCORE) than S17 games. There’s one H17 shoe game I’ve played with a SCORE in the 100 range.

• mikeyd
Quote: tthree said:
Isn’t surrender 17 v A a BS play for H17? I am still able to avoid this horrible rule. If I wanted to play it I would have to drive by many stores that offer only S17 in 2 states to get there.

Yes. And isn’t surrender 8,8 v A also BS for H17?

• BrianCP
Quote: tthree said:
I am still able to avoid this horrible rule. If I wanted to play it I would have to drive by many stores that offer only S17 in 2 states to get there.

Lucky you, there isn’t a casino in my state with a S17 game.

• BJgenius007
Quote: mikeyd said:
Right. Page 93 also has surrender 17 v A index at +2 or lower.
It also has index for surrender 8,8 v A as 4*, but based on
table on page 261, I think you ignore this if you can both buy
insurance and surrender, and thus should surrender at -5 or higher.
Do you read this the same way?

17 vs A on H17 Game with LS available:

Surrender if TC is equal to or less than +2
Stay if TC is greater than +2

17 vs A on H17 Game with no surrender option:

Hit if TC is less than -5
Stay if TC is equal to or greater than -5

There are two odd hands, 17 v A and 8,8 v A on H17 ,because these two have reverse indexes. For S17 game, it is much simpler since there are no additional reverse indexes for surrendering these two hands. You always use Basic Strategy to slit 8,8 v A, and hit 17 v A when TC is super negative (less than -6).

• BJgenius007
Quote: mikeyd said:
Yes. And isn’t surrender 8,8 v A also BS for H17?

Yes. For 8,8 v A on H17 game,

Surrender if TC is negative, 0, +1, +2, +3.

Split if TC is +4 or higher.

You see, if you don’t know True Count and choose surrender, you will be right most of the times. The frequency of TC +4 or higher is slim.

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