Double on soft 21

#1
Hi,

I remembered James Grojean mentioned in Beyond Counting that we should double on soft 21 when we get Ace after we split Tens, as it doesn't pay 2 to 1. Today my friend splitted Tens against 5 (the true count was about 8 and we used Hi-Los system.) He got a 9 on the first and Ace on the second, which made a soft 21. I told him (well, I wasn't very serious) that he should double on the soft 21 and he said that I was crazy and stay the hand.

The next player had A6 and got a Ten as he doubled it. The dealer got Ten under and drew a 6, which made 21. It was a disaster...

We didn't ask to check the last card as we both didn't really want to know what would happen if he had doubled the soft 21.

Anyway, what I want to know is, have anyone really doubled soft 21 in real life? Does anyone hae the index? I believe theoretically it's very profitable, but I really doubt if anyone would do it...
 

bjcardcounter

Well-Known Member
#2
San said:
Hi,

I remembered James Grojean mentioned in Beyond Counting that we should double on soft 21 when we get Ace after we split Tens, as it doesn't pay 2 to 1. Today my friend splitted Tens against 5 (the true count was about 8 and we used Hi-Los system.) He got a 9 on the first and Ace on the second, which made a soft 21. I told him (well, I wasn't very serious) that he should double on the soft 21 and he said that I was crazy and stay the hand.
Did you mean " it does not pay 3 to 2".

At least in AC casinos, we cannot double on cards whose point count is 21.
 
#3
bjcardcounter said:
Did you mean " it does not pay 3 to 2".

At least in AC casinos, we cannot double on cards whose point count is 21.
Woops, sorry. Yes, what I meant is "it doesn't pay 3 to 2". (well, 2 to 1 is kind of too generous:laugh:)
 
#4
bjcardcounter said:
Did you mean " it does not pay 3 to 2".

At least in AC casinos, we cannot double on cards whose point count is 21.
Actually, the dealer and pit boss allowed us to do it as we asked it before...
 

SleightOfHand

Well-Known Member
#6
Maybe you should re-read Beyond Counting or re-read your first blackjack book. It sounds like you got a long way to go before being a successful player.

There is no point in rabbit chasing, you are just gonna be screwing yourself with confirmation bias. Doubling on soft 21 is pretty much never a good play in terms of heat (I suspect) and the play you mention was applicable for holecarding. BC isn't really a major book for straight CC, although there is some good info in there for those that do.

There actually is an index for doubling on soft 21; its very high and someone with CVData will be able to quote you an index. That being said, it shouldn't be done anyway, doubling on soft 20 is very suspicious, let alone 21.
 
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paddywhack

Well-Known Member
#8
San said:
Anyway, what I want to know is, have anyone really doubled soft 21 in real life? Does anyone hae the index? I believe theoretically it's very profitable, but I really doubt if anyone would do it...
I've done it once. It was a pretty funny time. $3 min table and me and another "cat" were doing our best to shake things up while this ploppy was going through the roof. First he split his tens, then I split mine, resplit, and then doubled my soft 21. We won that hand to the dismay of the ploppy. Wasn't an index play but at $3 we were having a good time after several really boring shoes.
 

The Chaperone

Well-Known Member
#9
I believe the HiLo index is 8 for doubling soft 21 vs. 5 so you were right on the number. No point in doing it from a risk perspective, but if the count were higher, it could make sense. IIRC, the index vs. 6 is 7 and vs. 4 is 10. I've done all of these quite a few times. Sometimes you get the bull. Sometimes you get the horns.
 
#10
I'm known for splitting tens and I would not double on 21, except in rare circumstances - like in SF21 multicard double, or in a monster count on my way out of town, etc. It has no real value for regular counters. Heat score. zg
 
#11
The Chaperone said:
I believe the HiLo index is 8 for doubling soft 21 vs. 5 so you were right on the number. No point in doing it from a risk perspective, but if the count were higher, it could make sense. IIRC, the index vs. 6 is 7 and vs. 4 is 10. I've done all of these quite a few times. Sometimes you get the bull. Sometimes you get the horns.
Hi Chaperone,

Where did you get the index? From the CRVX or somewhere else?

To all,

Thanks for your reply. I understand that double on soft 21 is kind of a stupid move, but I believe if we don't consider the heat, at certain count, double on soft 21 is a smart move against dealer low card, just like we double soft 20 or split tens against 6.

I checked Professional BJ by Stanford Wong but there's no index for doubling soft 21....
 

The Chaperone

Well-Known Member
#12
Yeah I normally use the indices in PBJ, but it's not in there. A friend of mine simmed it a few years ago and I'm going by memory (fairly confident I'm at least within one on each index). I do not recall which software he used and he is now retired from blackjack.

As far as heat is concerned, you have already split tens, so you may as well double if you feel it is correct from an EV and risk perspective. Be careful though because the dealer may pass you by after dealing the ace, and either move on to your next ten or the next player. If the count is sufficiently huge, I usually tell the dealer that I intend to double if I receive an ace to prevent that from happening. This is not hard to work into the conversation since at this point they are usually telling you how crazy you are for splitting tens to which you can reply "You think that's crazy? Give me an ace and I'll double!"
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
#13
zengrifter said:
I'm known for splitting tens and I would not double on 21, except in rare circumstances - like in SF21 multicard double, or in a monster count on my way out of town, etc. It has no real value for regular counters. Heat score. zg
I think before I'd try this, I'd pull an old hustler's trick and slap some Seagram's "cologne" on my face and neck. Or Beefeater's, for it's loud and distinctive aroma.

An arsonist who lights a second fire in close proximity to the first is begging to get caught. (Splitting tens, then doubling soft 21)

And even at the appropriate count index, the heat index does not seem to justify the incremental gain.
 

The Chaperone

Well-Known Member
#14
aslan said:
I think before I'd try this, I'd pull an old hustler's trick and slap some Seagram's "cologne" on my face and neck. Or Beefeater's, for it's loud and distinctive aroma.

An arsonist who lights a second fire in close proximity to the first is begging to get caught. (Splitting tens, then doubling soft 21)

And even at the appropriate count index, the heat index does not seem to justify the incremental gain.
The incremental gain on both of these plays is actually quite huge as both plays are very count sensitive.
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
#15
The Chaperone said:
The incremental gain on both of these plays is actually quite huge as both plays are very count sensitive.
I could live with just winning the splits, and suffering the extra heat. However, no matter how high the incremental gain is, I doubt it surpasses the intense heat generated by the act of doubling down on a soft 21 on top of splitting tens on the same hand.

Others may differ.
 

moo321

Well-Known Member
#16
The Chaperone said:
The incremental gain on both of these plays is actually quite huge as both plays are very count sensitive.
Don't forget risk aversion, though. The risk averse index has got to be much higher.
 

The Chaperone

Well-Known Member
#17
Some of you guys are dense. Either that or you just like to repeat arguments over and over again. I already mentioned risk aversion in this thread. I also already pointed out that in my opinion, if you've already split tens, you aren't going to generate much more heat by doubling down on soft 21. If you disagree fine, but you don't need to keep bringing it up over and over again.
 
#18
So, I'm playing grave at TI in the higher limit pit and this euro hotty joins the table and we are getting along great for 30min or so when the count goes monster and I place two max.

The dealer shows 5 or 6, my new table partner is good with her own rather large bet, and my first hand is 10s and before I place my second bet to split the dealer passes right to my hard 7 and hits me with 10.

Now I'm gonna show euro doll who's da man!

Stop. Where was my hand signal? Dealer calls PC. "Sir is that what you want to do, split 10s?" "Hell yes," I say. Beauty is instantly perturbed, so is main boss as he steps in and adamantly tells dealer "He splits 10s, understand" He splits 10s!" as he looks at me funny.

Dealer moves 10 to my first split 10 and I resplit - I get something like 18 and 19 on the first two, then an Ace on the final 10 and I double and I hear beauty say disdainfully, "Oh geezus." I take a hit on my second hand and the dealer proceeds to make 21.

Euro doll knocks her drink over splashing a bit on me and gets up as she loudly proclaims "assh*le!" and storms off! z:laugh::laugh:g
 
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#19
Z-Man

zengrifter said:
So, I'm playing grave at TI in the higher limit pit and this euro hotty joins the table and we are getting along great for 30min or so when the count goes monster and I place two max.

The dealer shows 5 or 6, my new table partner is good with her own rather large bet, and my first hand is 10s and before I place my second bet to split the dealer passes right to my hard 7 and hits me with 10.

Now I'm gonna show euro doll who's da man!

Stop. Where was my hand signal? Dealer calls PC. "Sir is that what you want to do, split 10s?" "Hell yes," I say. Beauty is instantly perturbed, so is main boss as he steps in and adamantly tells dealer "He splits 10s, understand" He splits 10s!" as he looks at me funny.

Dealer moves 10 to my first split 10 and I resplit - I get something like 18 and 19 on the first two, then an Ace on the final 10 and I double and I hear beauty say disdainfully, "Oh geezus." I take a hit on my second hand and the dealer proceeds to make 21.

Euro doll knocks her drink over splashing a bit on me and gets up as she loudly proclaims "assh*le!" and storms off! z:laugh::laugh:g
Sounds like something I just recently pulled off, or not so off!:(:eek::eek:

CP
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
#20
The Chaperone said:
Some of you guys are dense. Either that or you just like to repeat arguments over and over again. I already mentioned risk aversion in this thread. I also already pointed out that in my opinion, if you've already split tens, you aren't going to generate much more heat by doubling down on soft 21. If you disagree fine, but you don't need to keep bringing it up over and over again.

You said: "As far as heat is concerned, you have already split tens, so you may as well double if you feel it is correct from an EV and risk perspective."

I disagreed, saying
the incremental gain was not worth the heat in most cases.


You then countered that the incremental gain was quite huge.

I countered by stating that "no matter how high the incremental gain is, I doubt it surpasses the intense heat generated by the act of doubling down on a soft 21 on top of splitting tens on the same hand. "

When I think a statement is questionable, I feel it's appropriate to speak, not especially for your benefit, but for others who read the posts, especially newbies. Also, it invites others to pitch in with their two cents pro or con.
 
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