Legality of Novelty IDs

  • ScottH

    Legality of Novelty IDs

    Me and a friend are having a slight difference of opinion on the legality of novelty IDs. We both agree it’s illegal to use a fake ID that looks identical to one that is government issued. I said to get around this you make a novelty ID. As zengrifter mentioned, change the wording around a little bit and add some remark on the back that makes it clearly novelty. My friend still thinks this is illegal because you are trying to get it to pass as a government issued ID still. Even though it is changed slightly, you are still intending it to look like a government issued ID. Anyone familiar with the law here?

    Let’s say I were to use a novelty ID that was slightly altered, and was caught, what would happen?

  • halcyon1234

     

    Quote: ScottH said:
    Me and a friend are having a slight difference of opinion on the legality of novelty IDs. We both agree it’s illegal to use a fake ID that looks identical to one that is government issued. I said to get around this you make a novelty ID. As zengrifter mentioned, change the wording around a little bit and add some remark on the back that makes it clearly novelty. My friend still thinks this is illegal because you are trying to get it to pass as a government issued ID still. Even though it is changed slightly, you are still intending it to look like a government issued ID. Anyone familiar with the law here?

    Let’s say I were to use a novelty ID that was slightly altered, and was caught, what would happen?

    Here’s a Yahoo answers discussion on it:

    https://malaysia.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070121112345AATxliW

    From what I understand, if you get caught at the door, you’ll be bounced for sure. If security feels like being a dick, they can call the cops and have you arrested. If you get passed the door and fail an ID check at cashout, they won’t pay you. I don’t know what will happen to your initial buy-in.

  • ChefJJ

     

    Quote: ScottH said:
    Me and a friend are having a slight difference of opinion on the legality of novelty IDs. We both agree it’s illegal to use a fake ID that looks identical to one that is government issued. I said to get around this you make a novelty ID. As zengrifter mentioned, change the wording around a little bit and add some remark on the back that makes it clearly novelty. My friend still thinks this is illegal because you are trying to get it to pass as a government issued ID still. Even though it is changed slightly, you are still intending it to look like a government issued ID. Anyone familiar with the law here?

    Let’s say I were to use a novelty ID that was slightly altered, and was caught, what would happen?

    Each state’s statutes are a bit different with about anything, but for the most part, you are using it as a govt ID (e.g. drivers license)…and that carries the same punishment as using an invalid/altered govt ID. I’d say that using it at a casino would be a bit more ballsier than at the college bars. Nobody gives too much of a crap there.

  • ScottH

     

    I don’t know if it makes a difference here, but I will not be using the card for illegal purposes since I am 21. Does that change anything?

  • shadroch

     

    If you are doing something that you would be ashamed of having it publicly revealed,thus the need for fake id,the answer should be self-evident.Maybe instead of asking if your action is legal,you should question yourself to see if it is moral.

  • zengrifter

     

    My position is that noveltyIDs are both legal and moral for casino AP use… BUT, do not get caught with multiple IDs in your possession. zg

  • ChefJJ

     

    Quote: ScottH said:
    I don’t know if it makes a difference here, but I will not be using the card for illegal purposes since I am 21. Does that change anything?

    Yeah. But as ZG said, don’t have multiple IDs. Of course, if you are in a casino you’ll probably need your real ID. Tough call.

  • ScottH

     

    Quote: shadroch said:
    If you are doing something that you would be ashamed of having it publicly revealed,thus the need for fake id,the answer should be self-evident.Maybe instead of asking if your action is legal,you should question yourself to see if it is moral.

    I don’t care about the morality of the issue. I just care about the legal consequences.

    Even though I don’t care if it is moral or not, I don’t see why using a novelty ID would be immoral if I am 21. Do you have a reason why it would be? I’m not doing anyone any harm by using it…

  • ScottH

     

    Quote: zengrifter said:
    My position is that noveltyIDs are both legal and moral for casino AP use… BUT, do not get caught with multiple IDs in your possession. zg

    Why would it be bad to be caught with a novelty ID if they are not illegal? You would have one legal ID, and one legal novelty ID. What could happen if I were to be caught with both of those?

  • ChefJJ

     

    Quote: ScottH said:
    Why would it be bad to be caught with a novelty ID if they are not illegal? You would have one legal ID, and one legal novelty ID. What could happen if I were to be caught with both of those?

    I think the impression you made originally was that the novelty ID would falsely identify you as someone else…that’s why you wouldn’t want to have both. I get your drift now.

    From a legal standpoint, casinos or whatever most likely will not accept a novelty ID for official identification, so I doubt it would get you in “trouble’ per se. It just may be worthless. The circumstances you are asking about have a lot of grey area, so it’s hard to answer your question straight.

    Good luck with it though

  • ScottH

     

    Quote: ChefJJ said:
    I think the impression you made originally was that the novelty ID would falsely identify you as someone else…that’s why you wouldn’t want to have both. I get your drift now.

    From a legal standpoint, casinos or whatever most likely will not accept a novelty ID for official identification, so I doubt it would get you in “trouble’ per se. It just may be worthless. The circumstances you are asking about have a lot of grey area, so it’s hard to answer your question straight.

    Good luck with it though

    I want the novelty ID to have fake information, but I am not trying to steal anyone’s identity or anything.

    Of course they would’t accept the novelty ID if they knew it were novelty. That is the point though, make it look as if it is a real ID, but have it altered in such a way that it makes it a novelty ID.

    Zengrifter, it sounds like you have been using novelty IDs. Where do you get them, how are they altered, etc.

  • ChefJJ

     

    Quote: ScottH said:
    I want the novelty ID to have fake information, but I am not trying to steal anyone’s identity or anything.

    Of course they would’t accept the novelty ID if they knew it were novelty. That is the point though, make it look as if it is a real ID, but have it altered in such a way that it makes it a novelty ID.

    Zengrifter, it sounds like you have been using novelty IDs. Where do you get them, how are they altered, etc.

    Then, I think you have answered the question a bit. If it is “made to look like” an official (govt-issued) ID, then you are walking a fine line. State statutes are somewhat specific about that, and making minor alterations don’t really exempt you from crossing that fine line. Dealing with attorneys way too often for my own personal taste in my line of work, I’d say that if you want to get close to that fine line with an institution like a casino, be careful. They employ sharks that will read that law the way they want to…and it doesn’t matter if they are right.

    Think about this: If making fake IDs to buy beer can get you arrested…

  • ScottH

     

    Quote: ChefJJ said:
    Then, I think you have answered the question a bit. If it is “made to look like” an official (govt-issued) ID, then you are walking a fine line. State statutes are somewhat specific about that, and making minor alterations don’t really exempt you from crossing that fine line. Dealing with attorneys way too often for my own personal taste in my line of work, I’d say that if you want to get close to that fine line with an institution like a casino, be careful. They employ sharks that will read that law the way they want to…and it doesn’t matter if they are right.

    Think about this: If making fake IDs to buy beer can get you arrested…

    Well, I was thinking novelty ID’s may be like people getting 86’d from casinos. They always say dont come back or you’ll be arrested, but nobody in the history of Nevada has ever been committed of a crime for returning to a casino after being kicked out. I was thinking the same thing would happen with novelty ID’s, if they find out they threaten you, but nothing really happens. That’s why I am asking people that use them regularily to see how it happens in reality. But I still want to know the law and possible consequences too.

  • ChefJJ

     

    Scott,

    I don’t blame you for wanting to know the risks. I may be prying, are you talking about using the novelty ID for something like a comp card or coupons or something? If that’s the case, there’s probably some sort of “fine print” involved, and if it doesn’t talk about requiring proper ID, then you may be better off. Of course, they put the fine print on stuff, assuming the average joe doesn’t read it, and then they pull it on you–this may be such a case.

    If there’s no mention in the little stuff and you don’t think you are “close” to replicating a govt ID, do your thing man. Just remember, people always love to pull the “see some ID” or “see another form of ID” on guys close to 21.

  • ScottH

     

    Quote: ChefJJ said:
    Scott,

    I don’t blame you for wanting to know the risks. I may be prying, are you talking about using the novelty ID for something like a comp card or coupons or something? If that’s the case, there’s probably some sort of “fine print” involved, and if it doesn’t talk about requiring proper ID, then you may be better off. Of course, they put the fine print on stuff, assuming the average joe doesn’t read it, and then they pull it on you–this may be such a case.

    If there’s no mention in the little stuff and you don’t think you are “close” to replicating a govt ID, do your thing man. Just remember, people always love to pull the “see some ID” or “see another form of ID” on guys close to 21.

    Yes, I want to use a novelty ID with fake information to get player’s cards at the casino.

    I suppose if they ever ask me to present ID while in the casino I can refuse.

  • zengrifter

     

    Quote: ScottH said:
    Why would it be bad to be caught with a novelty ID if they are not illegal? You would have one legal ID, and one legal novelty ID. What could happen if I were to be caught with both of those?

    If a bunch of them were found by cops or airport security it would like like you are involved in some sort of fraud. You could, however, have a letter in your possession from your attorney explaining that you are a legitimate card-counter and inviting the authorities to call him. zg

  • zengrifter

     

    Quote: ChefJJ said:
    From a legal standpoint, casinos or whatever most likely will not accept a novelty ID for official identification,

    Bullshit (or ignorance).

    respectfully, zg

  • zengrifter

     

    Either make your own or purchase overpriced product over the Web. As for te legalities, see I. Nelson Rose ‘BJ And The Law’. zg

    ——–
    Nevada Supreme Court Orders Casino to Pay Card Counter

    Chen got his money because he did nothing illegal. Although Nevada Regulation 6A requires players to show I.D. when they buy in for more than $10,000 cash, there is nothing in the regulation making it a crime to show a phony I.D.
    http://rose.casinocitytimes.com/article/nevada-supreme-court-orders-casino-to-pay-card-counter-967

  • ChefJJ

     

    Quote: zengrifter said:
    Either make your own or purchase overpriced product over the Web. As for te legalities, see I. Nelson Rose ‘BJ And The Law’. zg

    ——–
    Nevada Supreme Court Orders Casino to Pay Card Counter

    Chen got his money because he did nothing illegal. Although Nevada Regulation 6A requires players to show I.D. when they buy in for more than $10,000 cash, there is nothing in the regulation making it a crime to show a phony I.D.
    http://rose.casinocitytimes.com/article/nevada-supreme-court-orders-casino-to-pay-card-counter-967

    Read my previous post…different state statues handle it differently. Since the casino industry is quite different in NV than any other state in the US, there are different ways of handling it. All I cautioned Scott was to look into it locally.

    If you get pulled into a lawsuit and have to go through that BS, is it worth it?

  • ChefJJ

     

    Quote: zengrifter said:
    Bullshit (or ignorance).

    respectfully, zg

    So you’re telling us that a casino HAS to accept any form of ID that you throw at them?

  • ScottH

     

    Quote: zengrifter said:
    Either make your own or purchase overpriced product over the Web. As for te legalities, see I. Nelson Rose ‘BJ And The Law’. zg

    ——–
    Nevada Supreme Court Orders Casino to Pay Card Counter

    Chen got his money because he did nothing illegal. Although Nevada Regulation 6A requires players to show I.D. when they buy in for more than $10,000 cash, there is nothing in the regulation making it a crime to show a phony I.D.
    http://rose.casinocitytimes.com/article/nevada-supreme-court-orders-casino-to-pay-card-counter-967

    You have to make it look like a drivers license though right? I’m assuming you couldnt get a novelty library card and have that work.

    From what I have seen it’s hard to find a real novelty ID site, just FAKE ID’s, which I am not interested in for the negative consequences are too great.

  • ScottH

     

    Quote: ChefJJ said:
    So you’re telling us that a casino HAS to accept any form of ID that you throw at them?

    No, he’s saying if you have a novelty ID that looks like a real ID they will accept it without questioning it. It’s not like you have the word NOVELTY written in bold letters across the ID. It is a slight change to the wording, or something like that to make it novelty. Something that a normal casino employee would not recognize the difference, so they just accept it without a problem. That is the point of novelty ID’s, get them to pass as real ID’s, but they are really not.

  • zengrifter

     

    Quote: ScottH said:
    No, he’s saying if you have a novelty ID that looks like a real ID they will accept it without questioning it. It’s not like you have the work NOVELTY written in bold letters across the ID. It is a slight change to the wording, or something like that to make it novelty. Something that a normal casino employee would not recognize the difference, so they just accept it without a problem. That is the point of novelty ID’s, get them to pass as real ID’s, but they are really not.

    You only use them to obtain a player’s card! zg

  • ScottH

     

    Quote: zengrifter said:
    You only use them to obtain a player’s card! zg

    And you have to use them every time you enter the casino to gain entrance…

    Here is my theory. You use the novelty ID right when you get in the door. If you get caught, they will probably just refuse your entrance. If you get by with it and they ask you for ID later, you can refuse. Seems pretty easy, but I have a tendency to underestimate security measures, so I like to be sure.

  • supercoolmancool

     

    You don’t have to show your id to the pit bosses and other casino personel, but if you are suspected of being underaged and a security guard/police officer requests an ID, then I think you have to show it. But I don’t know.

The BlackjackInfo Knowledge Base contains over 200,000 messages posted by the BlackjackInfo community.

Posting and replies to the knowledge base are no longer available, but comments and replies are welcomed on the blog.