You Win Big: Cash-in the Chips Now or Later?

  • BOND

    You Win Big: Cash-in the Chips Now or Later?

    You had a big win playing blackjack and the suits give you a serious stare down but no backoff. You decide to stop playing. What is your exit strategy?

    a) Go directly to the cage, cash-in all the chips, and risk the casino taking the perfect photo.

    b) Leave the casino with the chips and cash-in the chips another day. Possibly prevented from rentering the casino and difficuties cashing-in the chips.

    Any opinions?

  • 21forme

     

    Leave. Have wife, girlfriend, etc. cash some of the chips another shift. Rinse and repeat.

  • BOND

    Only Constructive Opinions Please

    Quote: Sucker said:
    This is a no-brainer.

    Only constructive opinions please..

    Unfortunately, it sometimes is not that simple to change chips later. You are traveling alone, for example. Or your flight is later the same day.

    Occasionally, casinos make it difficult to change a large sum of chips the next day and/or by another person who has not been playing any casino games.

  • johndoe

     

    If it’s not possible or practical to come back later or have someone else handle it, then sure, cash the chips. Just keep your head down and be sure the amount is <$10k. But it's best to get out. A quick stop at the restroom, and if possible going to a cage in another area, might be worthwhile.

  • Gamblor

     

    Quote: johndoe said:
    If it’s not possible or practical to come back later or have someone else handle it, then sure, cash the chips. Just keep your head down and be sure the amount is <$10k. But it's best to get out. A quick stop at the restroom, and if possible going to a cage in another area, might be worthwhile.

    This might be a dumb question, never had the “misfortune” of having to cash in $10K+, but lets say you won $18K, would a CTR be generated if you cashed out $9K and deposited the other $9K with the casino cage? Technically, you haven’t transacted $10K in currency.

  • zengrifter

     

    Quote: Gamblor said:
    Technically, you haven’t transacted $10K in currency.

    However, technically, you may have engaged in a fraudulent ‘structuring’ intended to circumvent regulatory process. zg

  • Gamblor

     

    Quote: zengrifter said:
    However, technically, you may have engaged in a fraudulent ‘structuring’ intended to circumvent regulatory process. zg

    Of course, would not suggest anyone do this to circumvent regulatory processes, that would be wrong!

    But some people do have the legitimate need of depositing their money with the casino, don’t want to be waddling around with huge sums of cash in your pocket.

  • Sucker

     

    Quote: BOND said:
    Unfortunately, it sometimes is not that simple to change chips later. You are traveling alone, for example. Or your flight is later the same day.
    Occasionally, casinos make it difficult to change a large sum of chips the next day and/or by another person who has not been playing any casino games.

    Sorry about that; did not mean to sound sarcastic one bit.
    You gave us a choice of only 2 options; both options can be correct or incorrect depending upon the circumstances. The best decision can only be made by the person who was there, and to whom all circumstances are known. THAT’S what I meant by “no-brainer”.

  • tthree

     

    If you are playing an amount unrated (no players card) to win that kind of money they already took your picture. That is one of the biggest red flags out there. What gambler who has been around the block a few times isnt going to want comps for his action? If they ask for a card and you decline to give them one or have them make one from your ID, you might as well write counter on your forehead. That’s what they will see.

    If you have to cash out $10,000 or more, have them cut you a check. No ctr involved. No limit to the amount.

  • BOND

     

    Quote: Sucker said:
    Sorry about that; did not mean to sound sarcastic one bit.
    You gave us a choice of only 2 options; both options can be correct or incorrect depending upon the circumstances. The best decision can only be made by the person who was there, and to whom all circumstances are known. THAT’S what I meant by “no-brainer”.

    I agree that either decision can be correct depending on the circumstances; it is a good discussion topic, because it is a tough call sometimes.

    If I am in a large well established casino, I may cash-in chips on a different day. If it is a small casino or there is any hint that it may be difficult to cash-in chips later, I usually cash-in chips before leaving the casino.

    I have had only one experience where there was a problem cashing chips on the day after a winning session.

    Has anyone else had a problem cashing chips after a winning session?

  • BOND

     

    Quote: johndoe said:
    If it’s not possible or practical to come back later or have someone else handle it, then sure, cash the chips. Just keep your head down and be sure the amount is <$10k. But it's best to get out. A quick stop at the restroom, and if possible going to a cage in another area, might be worthwhile.

    I like your idea about making it difficult for the cage to take a good picture. In this case, wearing a baseball cap and looking down would work. Good point about <$10k..

  • moo321

     

    If you’re getting heat, you probably just want to leave. They often have high res cameras at the cage.

    Also, try to be aware of what level of cashout draws attention. One casino I know, it’s $3k. Others don’t give a crap until $10k.

  • Sonny

     

    In general, I never cash out my chips at the end of a session unless I don’t plan to ever return. Having a stockpile of chips from your target casinos is very handy. If they start to pile up to an unreasonable level, just cash in a few on your next scouting trip or if your game isn’t on. I find that cheques are somewhat safer to transport as well.

    -Sonny-

  • Dyepaintball12

     

    No matter when you cash out, keep your head DOWN at the cage.

  • shadroch

     

    If you have to cash out $10,000 or more, have them cut you a check. No ctr involved. No limit to the amount.[/QUOTE]

    I don’t believe this is correct. A cashiers check is currency, just as cash is.
    Its called a Currency Transaction Report, not a Cash transaction Report.

  • WRX

     

    Quote: BOND said:
    Only constructive opinions please..

    Sucker was only trying to be helpful and give good advice, and as a general rule his advice is correct. MANY backoffs have taken place at the cage. Casinos can get better photos there. They have you disabled if your chips are not in your hot little hands. Backoffs at the cage are less intimidating for other players than if done at the table. So you don’t want to give the casino that opportunity.

    On occasion, you may not have a choice. If you’re at some little place in Thudpucker, Iowa, about to leave for a 300 mile drive, and can’t imagine why you’d ever want to return, you do what you have to do.

    If you, or a friend, can return the next day on a different shift, or on repeated occasions, and cash in chips in amounts below the casino’s hassle threshold, do it that way.

    If you know that a casino always gives a hassle cashing large-denomination chips–don’t accept chips of that size at the table!

    Remember that you need to refrain from breaking down cashouts of $10,000 or more into smaller transactions for the purpose of avoiding a CTR filing.

    If you think that you’ll want to return to the casino in the future, and play again, you may have a good business reason for keeping chips. If you bring chips to the table when you play, you may avoid unwanted scrutiny that accompanies large cash buyins. Or you may know another AP who would like to buy chips from you for the same reason.

    Shadroch, casinos do not issue cashier’s checks. Only banks issue cashier’s check. A casino check is a personal check, just like a check written by any other business or by an individual. Neither a cashier’s check nor a personal check triggers a CTR filing requirement, unless it is “either in bearer form, endorsed without restriction, made out to a fictitious payee…, or otherwise in such form that title thereto passes upon delivery.” (31 CFR § 103.11(u).)

    For the most part, your aversion to a CTR will stem not from a desire to keep information out of the government’s hands, but instead from not wanting to give your identity to the casino. There’s not necessarily an advantage to requesting a check instead of cash for your chips, because although the casino won’t file a CTR the casino will still get your identity.

  • aslan

     

    Leave the casino before cashing in the chips.

    Here is some sound advice on cashing your chips. http://www.bj21.com/advantageplay/lawandtaxes/ifidisdemanded.shtml

    I was stopped for cashing in a little over $4,000 at a major strip casino. The cashier asked me for my player’s card. I told her I did not have a player’s card. She called the pit where I played, ostensibly to verify that I had won the money there. I was prepared to refuse to show my ID, but it did not go that far.

  • tribute

     

    Quote: tthree said:
    If you have to cash out $10,000 or more, have them cut you a check. No ctr involved. No limit to the amount.

    I am not the expert here, but it seems you still are “cashing out” your chips which is still a cash transaction, even though you ultimately receive a check. I also know players who would never accept a check from a casino. I appreciate further comments on this topic.

  • tthree

     

    Quote: aslan said:
    Leave the casino before cashing in the chips.

    Here is some sound advice on cashing your chips. http://www.bj21.com/advantageplay/lawandtaxes/ifidisdemanded.shtml

    I was stopped for cashing in a little over $4,000 at a major strip casino. The cashier asked me for my player’s card. I told her I did not have a player’s card. She called the pit where I played, ostensibly to verify that I had won the money there. I was prepared to refuse to show my ID, but it did not go that far.

    Aslan the ctr laws exist to catch criminals and money launderers for what they can get them on. Al Capone and many others they couldnt get any other way were caught this way. By refusing to show ID you put yourself into that profile and the wheels will be put in motion that exist to get these criminals. The only problem is the one the government will be looking at very very closely will be you. And their assumption will be this is who you are and that is how you will be viewed. If and when they decide otherwise will be when the intense scrutiny will end.

  • tthree

     

    Tribute read this quote. It lists the federal requirement at the end.

    Quote: WRX said:
    Shadroch, casinos do not issue cashier’s checks. Only banks issue cashier’s check. A casino check is a personal check, just like a check written by any other business or by an individual. Neither a cashier’s check nor a personal check triggers a CTR filing requirement, unless it is “either in bearer form, endorsed without restriction, made out to a fictitious payee…, or otherwise in such form that title thereto passes upon delivery.” (31 CFR § 103.11(u).)
    .
  • WRX

     

    Quote: tthree said:
    Aslan the ctr laws exist to catch criminals and money launderers for what they can get them on. Al Capone and many others they couldnt get any other way were caught this way. By refusing to show ID you put yourself into that profile and the wheels will be put in motion that exist to get these criminals. The only problem is the one the government will be looking at very very closely will be you. And their assumption will be this is who you are and that is how you will be viewed. If and when they decide otherwise will be when the intense scrutiny will end.

    Exactly how would the government know who to look at if you never identified yourself to the casino?

    Sorry, I’m not falling for the thinking that seems to be in vogue, holding that privacy is a quaint, outdated concept, and that we should happily give all desired information to self-styled “authority figures,” like casinos.

  • tthree

     

    Would the casino let you walk? I dont know. If they did would they follow you to determine your identity as the exgriffin man said they have done? I dont know the answer to that either.

    As you can see from Aslan’s experience they wanted to make sure he won the money and not purchased chips for the purpose of cashing them out and not gambling with them. That should at least infer a partial answer to those questions.

  • aslan

     

    Quote: tthree said:
    Aslan the ctr laws exist to catch criminals and money launderers for what they can get them on. Al Capone and many others they couldnt get any other way were caught this way. By refusing to show ID you put yourself into that profile and the wheels will be put in motion that exist to get these criminals. The only problem is the one the government will be looking at very very closely will be you. And their assumption will be this is who you are and that is how you will be viewed. If and when they decide otherwise will be when the intense scrutiny will end.

    The ctr law does not require you to show your ID for transactions $10,000 or less. However, some casinos keep a list of transactions of $3,000 or $5,000 which is used to catch “structuring” attempts to circumvent the ctr rules. Some of these same casinos take advantage of these less than $10,000 transaction points to force an ID check; this check is not required by law, and does not result in a “refusal” filing with the IRS. It does result in a refusal notation with the casino for other than CTR purposes, which is kept along with your picture. The only way a refusal is filed with the IRS is when you have a transaction of more than $10,000 and refuse to show your ID to the casino.

  • aslan

     

    Quote: WRX said:
    Exactly how would the government know who to look at if you never identified yourself to the casino?

    Sorry, I’m not falling for the thinking that seems to be in vogue, holding that privacy is a quaint, outdated concept, and that we should happily give all desired information to self-styled “authority figures,” like casinos.

    The law requires the casino to attach a description of the person refusing to show ID for any cash amount in excess of $10,000. As a practical matter, they attach a picture of the person, likely taken at the cashier window.

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