Bodog blackjack cheating?

  • garygo

    Bodog blackjack cheating?

    I have played many online Blackjack. I found Bodog’s Blackjack is extremely hard to win. There seems to be a pattern like this: when you get two picture cards, dealer often has the same. When dealer has small cards, he seldom busts. And it is very easy for the player to keep getting bad hands consecutively and lose for a very long streak. Their rule seems to be good (HE lower than 0.36%), but according to my experience it is much higher than that.

    In a word, Bodog Blackjack seems to have been manipulated and very unreal / unnatural.

    Other online Blackjack, like Bet365, are much more real and natural. And with similar rules you have much higher chance to win.

    Bodog (bodog.com) cheating?

  • sabre

     

    2 scenarios

    1) They’re cheating and you’ll lose your money in the long run.

    2) They’re not cheating and you’ll lose your money in the long run.

    Do you really care which it is?

    FYI … you can’t eyeball the fairness/unfairness of a blackjack game. You could record at minimum several hundred hands and possibly do some analysis to show some events occuring well outside of the bounds of normal probability. That would only be in the case of blatant cheating though (dealing seconds for example). Less blatant cheating would take thousands or tens of thousands of hands to analyze.

    Here’s my advice. Play for fake money instead. Keep track of how you do. At the end of 3 months, send me half the money you’ve lost. We’ll both be better off for it. PM me for my address.

  • Guynoire

     

    Bodog cheats, I’ve tested their game when doing promotions and found the variance to be way to high for a blackjack game, often 3 standard deviations or more positive or negative for the number of hands played.

    Really the only type of gambling you should be doing online is sports betting.

  • sabre

     

    Quote: Guynoire said:
    Bodog cheats, I’ve tested their game when doing promotions and found the variance to be way to high for a blackjack game, often 3 standard deviations or more positive or negative for the number of hands played.

    Really the only type of gambling you should be doing online is sports betting.

    You might actually be a moron. You and anyone exposed to you should be tested immediately.

  • picasso

     

    Originally Posted by Guynoire
    Bodog cheats, I’ve tested their game when doing promotions and found the variance to be way to high for a blackjack game, often 3 standard deviations or more positive or negative for the number of hands played.

    Really the only type of gambling you should be doing online is sports betting.

    Quote: sabre said:
    You might actually be a moron. You and anyone exposed to you should be tested immediately.

    Bad language make’s you look like a or worse.

  • BodogBecky

     

    Quote: garygo said:
    I have played many online Blackjack. I found Bodog’s Blackjack is extremely hard to win. There seems to be a pattern like this: when you get two picture cards, dealer often has the same. When dealer has small cards, he seldom busts. And it is very easy for the player to keep getting bad hands consecutively and lose for a very long streak. Their rule seems to be good (HE lower than 0.36%), but according to my experience it is much higher than that.

    In a word, Bodog Blackjack seems to have been manipulated and very unreal / unnatural.

    Other online Blackjack, like Bet365, are much more real and natural. And with similar rules you have much higher chance to win.

    Bodog (bodog.com) cheating?

    Hey everyone,

    Bodog.com does not cheat, and I can explain how I know this for a fact.

    I am the Global Bodog Brand Ambassador and the company I work for is the Antiguan based BodogBrand.com. In this capacity I work directly for Calvin Ayre and am in direct and constant touch with the four Bodog Brand licensees, the US facing Morris Mohawk Gaming Group (bodog.com), the UK and Canadian facing Bodog Europe (bodog.co.uk and bodog.ca), the Asian facing Haydock Sports (bodog.88) and Bodog Network (bodogpoker.com).

    After reading this thread, I spoke directly with MMGG/Bodog.com and asked for an official response which may help explain and clear some things up for you. The response is copied and pasted below:

    Garygo,

    I am sorry to hear that you had an unsatisfactory experience at Bodog’s Blackjack table.

    I can assure you that our software and Random Number Generator are fully certified, and our games provide a fair gaming experience for our players. Inevitably some of our players will have a bad run of cards; however, I have also heard some great stories of players winning big at our tables.

    Another key thing to consider, as Sabre mentioned in his responding post, getting a true sample of a Blackjack game takes a lot of hands. A sample of 20,000 hands is what most would consider an adequate amount to get a real assessment of the game. Even then a player’s choices will usually stray at least slightly from proper strategy over the course of 20,000 hands. Lets be honest, who really surrenders a pair of 8’s against a dealer Ace J

    I would also ask you to consider another number — 15. Bodog has been around for 15 years and we plan on being around for a long time yet. We also understand that when players have bad experiences, such as you have, the chances of them sticking around and continuing to play with Bodog aren’t very good at all.

    At the end of the day all Casino games, Blackjack included, have a house edge. We have no reason to alter the game in anyway. All you need to do is walk down the strip in Vegas and you have all the proof you need that offering a fair and honest game of Blackjack is just simply good business.

    If you would like more information on our Casino Games, I would also suggest contacting our Casino Customer Service team at casino@bodog.com or give them a call at 1-866-2341324. We have some very experienced agents who would be more than happy to answer all of your questions and discuss your account with you.

    Also, I would like to add that Bodog.com software and RNG have been tested and are certified by two separate independent, internationally recognized and accredited testing facilities: Technical Systems Testing and Gaming Associates. Both have independently certified Bodog.com software to be random in outcome and fair in operation. Both of their rigorous testing procedures involve the examination of the details of the RNG algorithms, system architecture details relevant to the implementation of RNG components and their security, source code for RNG algorithms and calls to the RNG for any purpose (e.g., shuffling algorithms), analysis of 10 Megabytes of RNG output data for statistical “diehard” testing and game logs for each type of game.

    Questions or comments?

    Thank you!

    Becky

  • UK-21

     

    My story at Bodog. . . .

    Well over a year ago when I first started to play and study blackjack I was looking for a free game to practice BS on. I played at Bodog, having followed the link off of the Wizard of Odds web site. Bearing in mind this was the first time I had ever played there, I started off with the nominal $1,000 and within 90 minutes (400 hands max?) had a pot of over $5,500. I calculated this at over 4 Std Devs from the EV. I must have been really lucky that day. Hmmm . . .

  • shadroch

     

    Quote: newb99 said:
    My story at Bodog. . . .

    Well over a year ago when I first started to play and study blackjack I was looking for a free game to practice BS on. I played at Bodog, having followed the link off of the Wizard of Odds web site. Bearing in mind this was the first time I had ever played there, I started off with the nominal $1,000 and within 90 minutes (400 hands max?) had a pot of over $5,500. I calculated this at over 4 Std Devs from the EV. I must have been really lucky that day. Hmmm . . .

    I’m up almost 100 units in just over 1100 hands , flatbetting using CVBJV5.
    **** happens. I’m certainly not going to suspect that the software is fixed.

  • UK-21

     

    Mine worked out at c180 units in 400 or so hands – although I was playing a small progression, 1u-2u. Even with a progression being played, there’s still a mightly low probability of a result like this happening without some influencing factor.

    On the WoO chart (appendix 12 on the site) it shows a 0.01% of being 91 units up or down after 400 hands when flat betting 1u. This is what set the alarm bells ringing.

    As you say, $#it happens – it’s just suspicious when it happens the first time you play on a site.

  • garygo

     

    First of all thank you for your replies. Special thanks to the Bodog representative here – what a surprise! :-)

    I believe Bodog Blackjack cheats.

    I have played Bodog BJ for a long long time (even today), and I found their BJ is exceedingly unreal / unnatural. For example, dealer’s small cards are not only safe, but often turn into a powerful hand to beat the player (I often have 19-20 only to see dealer’s 6 or 5 becomes 21 to win). Also, when I increase my bet, the dealer always wins. After a long winning streak, you are almost doomed to have a very long losing streak (ridiculously long, to be more accurate). Besides, I lose much quicker when I bet huge (using the same bet spread and same strategy).

    At least the HE seems to be over 1% after my long time play there. Their rules should have a lower than 0.36% HE, but I seriously doubt it.

    I play Bet365 at the same time and found it to be very natural (exactly same as what happens in the real world). I use the exactly the same bet strategy to play Bet365 and can play much longer there with my budget every time.

    With Bodog BJ, I simply never feel safe, because all my chips have been wiped out very quickly many many times, especially when I bet big.

    If you are interested you can compare Bodog BJ and Bet365 BJ, and I am sure you will feel the difference. They have similar HE (0.36%), while Bodog BJ even allows for respliting the split hands, but I always lose quicker with Bodog.

    I do believe the software has been manipulated based on my personal experience. It is especially obvious when you compare it to Bet365 or land based casinos.

  • daddybo

     

    We do know that the online BJ games are negative ev games? I don’t play online but it is my understanding that the BJ games are shuffled after every hand and they should be truly random. (don’t know it for a fact… but that’s what I remember.) Truly Random is not a BJ players friend.

    Besides that, I would be hesitant to play anything like blackjack against a computer. Tooo many ways to manipulate the game. I’m not accusing anyone of cheating, but I do know the opportunity is there and at some point somebody will rationalize a reason to exploit the opportunity. You can have a game checked twice a week and it prove good, but who knows what code comes and goes from time to time.

  • QFIT

     

    I would be very surprised if Bodog cheats.

  • garygo

     

    I would like to hear Ken’s comment on Bodog BJ.

    Would you recommend it?

  • johndoe

     

    Quote: garygo said:
    I would like to hear Ken’s comment on Bodog BJ.

    Would you recommend it?

    I doubt Ken would recommend any game that is not beatable, including Bodog.

    I’m quite sure they’re not cheating, since there’s no reason to, and the costs of doing so are extraordinary. Enough people are certain to lose an honest game.

  • garygo

     

    Quote: johndoe said:
    I doubt Ken would recommend any game that is not beatable, including Bodog.

    I’m quite sure they’re not cheating, since there’s no reason to, and the costs of doing so are extraordinary. Enough people are certain to lose an honest game.

    But Ken is already recommending a number of online Blackjack casinos on the homepage. Are they beatable?

  • johndoe

     

    Quote: garygo said:
    But Ken is already recommending a number of online Blackjack casinos on the homepage. Are they beatable?

    They’re probably +EV for Ken!

  • KenSmith

     

    Quote: garygo said:
    I would like to hear Ken’s comment on Bodog BJ.

    Would you recommend it?

    Bodog’s reputation is good and I have no problems recommending them. I have no reason to believe the games at Bodog are anything but fair. While cheating online would be easy, there have been only a handful of confirmed problems over the years. I know when I played online my experience was very positive. I ended up well above EV for the games I played, and I played at a lot of different online casinos.

    The comments about me advertising only “beatable” games is off the mark though. My position has always been to offer all the information that a person would need to choose and play games to make money. But, for the majority of my target audience, that’s not what they’re looking for. They want to have fun. If a casino offers fair games and good customer service, that’s all I require. It’s up to the player to make smart decisions about where to play, how to play, and how much to play. For those who want to make money doing it, that’s certainly possible. But that’s not really a criteria for my decision on advertisers.

  • garygo

     

    Quote: KenSmith said:
    Bodog’s reputation is good and I have no problems recommending them. I have no reason to believe the games at Bodog are anything but fair. While cheating online would be easy, there have been only a handful of confirmed problems over the years. I know when I played online my experience was very positive. I ended up well above EV for the games I played, and I played at a lot of different online casinos.

    The comments about me advertising only “beatable” games is off the mark though. My position has always been to offer all the information that a person would need to choose and play games to make money. But, for the majority of my target audience, that’s not what they’re looking for. They want to have fun. If a casino offers fair games and good customer service, that’s all I require. It’s up to the player to make smart decisions about where to play, how to play, and how much to play. For those who want to make money doing it, that’s certainly possible. But that’s not really a criteria for my decision on advertisers.

    Thanks for your comment Ken. I will give Bodog more chance then.

  • sabre

     

    So the guy who told you not to play online blackjack is a Bodog representative?

    GFY Gary. I hope you lose all your money online … And you will …

  • garygo

     

    Quote: sabre said:
    So the guy who told you not to play online blackjack is a Bodog representative?

    GFY Gary. I hope you lose all your money online … And you will …

    sabre – Thank you very much. You’ve convinced me not to play Bodog anymore as I don’t want to lose all my money. Meanwhile I have no doubt you are already a loser at Bodog (or maybe everywhere in your life). Thanks for the heads-up.

    However, rest assured you will never be a loser again coz you have nothing to lose now. GFY – Good For You!

  • Guynoire

    My results

    I played 1000 hands at Bodog flat betting $1 a hand and using basic strategy. My expected loss was about $5 but I ended up positive $117.

    That’s over 3.5 standard deviations from the expected loss. The probability of something like that happening is less than 1 out of 2000. I’m not that lucky, Bodog must have cheated.

  • FLASH1296

     

    I believe that Michael Shackleford, “The Wizard of Odds”, endorses the site.

  • BodogBecky

     

    Quote: garygo said:
    First of all thank you for your replies. Special thanks to the Bodog representative here – what a surprise! :-)

    Pleasure!! Also, PM me if you have any questions and/or issues with CS and need another point of entry into the Bodog site you are playing with based on your location. I am in touch with the Bodog licensees on a daily basis and can get you answers quickly!

  • bj21abc

     

    So….

    you believe they are cheating to help you win, right ? Does that sound likely to you ?

    1 in 2000 – not so unlikely – it happens. You have to be talking more SDs to be suspicious, and yet more SDs to be almost sure something is fishy. Just be grateful you are on the right side of the curve….

    D.

    Quote: Guynoire said:
    I played 1000 hands at Bodog flat betting $1 a hand and using basic strategy. My expected loss was about $5 but I ended up positive $117.

    That’s over 3.5 standard deviations from the expected loss. The probability of something like that happening is less than 1 out of 2000. I’m not that lucky, Bodog must have cheated.

  • Blue Efficacy

     

    Quote: bj21abc said:
    So….

    you believe they are cheating to help you win, right ? Does that sound likely to you ?

    1 in 2000 – not so unlikely – it happens. You have to be talking more SDs to be suspicious, and yet more SDs to be almost sure something is fishy. Just be grateful you are on the right side of the curve….

    D.

    I think he was being sarcastic.

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