I'm new to card counting, and Black Jack for that matter. But i've been doing a bit of practice online and with a deck using the Hi-Lo system for about a week. I can count through a deck in under 30 seconds accurately most of the time, and can keep track quite easily when playing online. It seems pretty simple, of course casino situations are much more challenging than at home. Anyway, i was wondering if anyone has any advice for a noobie. Like what counting technique is the most accurate because i feel like it's certainly not Hi-Lo. Thanks in advance for any advice.
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- Thread starter HMAC
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Considering a more advanced counting system than HiLo should be about #37 on your list of priorities. Some of the things ahead of that are.
Understanding the effect of penetration
Estimating penetration accurately
Deck estimation, true count conversion accuracy
Understanding Risk of Ruin (ROR) and bankroll requirements
Constructing a betting ramp tailored to your specific situation
Wong in/out strategy
Index plays
Understanding and calculating the SCORE of various games
Understanding the effect of penetration
Estimating penetration accurately
Deck estimation, true count conversion accuracy
Understanding Risk of Ruin (ROR) and bankroll requirements
Constructing a betting ramp tailored to your specific situation
Wong in/out strategy
Index plays
Understanding and calculating the SCORE of various games
excellent list
And many more, especially dealing with variance, major losses, heat, feeling comfortable in the casino environment, distractions.
The list is nearly endless.
Learn a count and all of the other items listed here and then decide if you want to tackle a more complicated system. Most feel that Hi-Lo serves the purpose nicely for shoe games. SD/DD - not as much but still pretty darn good.
And many more, especially dealing with variance, major losses, heat, feeling comfortable in the casino environment, distractions.
The list is nearly endless.
Learn a count and all of the other items listed here and then decide if you want to tackle a more complicated system. Most feel that Hi-Lo serves the purpose nicely for shoe games. SD/DD - not as much but still pretty darn good.
Read!
Blackjack Bluebook II By Fred Renzey
Burning The Tables In Las Vegas By Ian Andersen
Best Blackjack By Frank Scoblete
Read everything in these books then read them again. Pay particular attention to what Renzey has to say regarding the Insurance bet-what Andersen says about penetration-and what Scoblete says about the memorizing of indices.:joker:Also for what it's worth I've been using Renzeys' Kiss III count for years and have been very happy with the results.
Blackjack Bluebook II By Fred Renzey
Burning The Tables In Las Vegas By Ian Andersen
Best Blackjack By Frank Scoblete
Read everything in these books then read them again. Pay particular attention to what Renzey has to say regarding the Insurance bet-what Andersen says about penetration-and what Scoblete says about the memorizing of indices.:joker:Also for what it's worth I've been using Renzeys' Kiss III count for years and have been very happy with the results.
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Yes, there ARE stronger counting systems than Hi-Lo. But the BEST multi-level systems are only a LITTLE BIT stronger. AND;even if you DO manage to play them perfectly, they're STILL only stronger in THEORY.
In actual PRACTICE, here's a couple of things that can and WILL happen: In the extra split second that the advanced system takes up in your calculations and/or in your counting, you will once in a while miss something REALLY important, such as a trackable sequence, or a dealer accidentally exposing your hit card or her hole card.
If this happens only once a MONTH, it will cost you WAY more than the small amount you've gained with your advanced counting system (and believe me when I tell you; for the person who's really paying attention, these opportunities come up MUCH more often than THAT!).
Or, and maybe MORE importantly; you might miss a subtle sign of heat coming from someone in the pit.
I only know of a couple of AP's who still use the higher level counting systems. As an example; Ken Uston never even played his OWN advanced point count, choosing instead a simple hi-lo.
In actual PRACTICE, here's a couple of things that can and WILL happen: In the extra split second that the advanced system takes up in your calculations and/or in your counting, you will once in a while miss something REALLY important, such as a trackable sequence, or a dealer accidentally exposing your hit card or her hole card.
If this happens only once a MONTH, it will cost you WAY more than the small amount you've gained with your advanced counting system (and believe me when I tell you; for the person who's really paying attention, these opportunities come up MUCH more often than THAT!).
Or, and maybe MORE importantly; you might miss a subtle sign of heat coming from someone in the pit.
I only know of a couple of AP's who still use the higher level counting systems. As an example; Ken Uston never even played his OWN advanced point count, choosing instead a simple hi-lo.
Really? He certainly seemed to mention the UAPC quite a bit regarding team play in his writings in Million Dollar Blackjack.
Still, one compelling reason I find for sticking to lower level counts is to look at folks like Grosjean and our own local pro Kewljason! I play very rarely and I think I'm pretty decent at my own version of FELT-Full, but sometimes I wonder if the effort is warranted.
Still, one compelling reason I find for sticking to lower level counts is to look at folks like Grosjean and our own local pro Kewljason! I play very rarely and I think I'm pretty decent at my own version of FELT-Full, but sometimes I wonder if the effort is warranted.
Believing anything that was written by K. Uston is not wise.
His veracity was always in question.
He was NOT a very successful card counter.
He was a world-class egotist self-promoter.
I disagree with the majority of posters here.
Learn a Level Two count A S A P
I suggest the ZEN Count or R.P.C. or FELT.
His veracity was always in question.
He was NOT a very successful card counter.
He was a world-class egotist self-promoter.
I disagree with the majority of posters here.
Learn a Level Two count A S A P
I suggest the ZEN Count or R.P.C. or FELT.
Thank you for all of the info and advice, i really appreciate it. But i seem to be getting some mixed messages. well first off what are index plays, and understanding and caluculating the score of games, because i have no idea.
I looked into the Zen Count, and it seems pretty easy to learn, just different values for cards. But i don't understand how a different counting system is more useful than another, since you are just trying to know the count left in the shoe. I'm not sure if this makes any sense at all. What I'm trying to say is: what is the difference of having a true count of +10 using Zen count vs. a true count +10 using HiLo?
I looked into the Zen Count, and it seems pretty easy to learn, just different values for cards. But i don't understand how a different counting system is more useful than another, since you are just trying to know the count left in the shoe. I'm not sure if this makes any sense at all. What I'm trying to say is: what is the difference of having a true count of +10 using Zen count vs. a true count +10 using HiLo?
A Simplification
Different Counting Systems have varying degrees of power depending on how well the True Count is correlated to the player's advantage/disadvantage, and how efficiently the count directs you to deviate from the Basic Strategy, especially when it comes to the Insurance decision.
This is all possible because of E.O.R. The "effect of removal" of various cards, or did you think that the effect was the same for all cards ?
For example, the most important low cards to have depleted from the deck/shoe are the 5 and the 4. The better counts use "tags" of +2, not +1, for these cards.
Depending on the rules, the number of decks, and the penetration the difference in advantage, [as measured by the "win rate" [units won per 100 hands]] a weak Level One Count (e.g. KISS, Hi-Opt I, Speed Count, Silver Fox, etc.) when compared to a strong Level Two Count (e.g. Hi-Opt II, Advanced Omega II, ZEN, Revere Point Count) will be somewhere from 10% to 25% weaker; but as a rule of thumb 15% is a good figure.
Different Counting Systems have varying degrees of power depending on how well the True Count is correlated to the player's advantage/disadvantage, and how efficiently the count directs you to deviate from the Basic Strategy, especially when it comes to the Insurance decision.
This is all possible because of E.O.R. The "effect of removal" of various cards, or did you think that the effect was the same for all cards ?
For example, the most important low cards to have depleted from the deck/shoe are the 5 and the 4. The better counts use "tags" of +2, not +1, for these cards.
Depending on the rules, the number of decks, and the penetration the difference in advantage, [as measured by the "win rate" [units won per 100 hands]] a weak Level One Count (e.g. KISS, Hi-Opt I, Speed Count, Silver Fox, etc.) when compared to a strong Level Two Count (e.g. Hi-Opt II, Advanced Omega II, ZEN, Revere Point Count) will be somewhere from 10% to 25% weaker; but as a rule of thumb 15% is a good figure.
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The True Count of +10 with Hi-Lo suggests a player advantage of about 4.5% depending on the rules, etc.
The True Count of +10 with ZEN suggests a player advantage of about 2.0% depending on the rules, etc.
Each Count has a different scaling of True Counts.
Incidentally you will reach a Hi-Lo T.C. of +10 in a shoe game on only the rarest of occasions; about as often as you will see a ZEN T.C. of +7.
The True Count of +10 with ZEN suggests a player advantage of about 2.0% depending on the rules, etc.
Each Count has a different scaling of True Counts.
Incidentally you will reach a Hi-Lo T.C. of +10 in a shoe game on only the rarest of occasions; about as often as you will see a ZEN T.C. of +7.
Thank you FLASH, and you were right, i didn't consider that cards have different levels of importance, apart from the ace which i assumed was the most important card. Are the 4 and 5 best to have out of shoe because those are the cards that benefit the dealer most?
So a T.C. of +10 HiLo is quite rare, equally as rare as a +7 T.C. with Zen. So why is the player advantage on a +10 HiLo much greater than a +10 Zen, if getting a Zen count of +10 is much more rare. Sorry if this doesn't make much sense, I'm very new to this.
So a T.C. of +10 HiLo is quite rare, equally as rare as a +7 T.C. with Zen. So why is the player advantage on a +10 HiLo much greater than a +10 Zen, if getting a Zen count of +10 is much more rare. Sorry if this doesn't make much sense, I'm very new to this.
The increase/decrease in player advantage is very different for each Counting System.
In HI-LO each change of +/- one T.C. increases/decreases your advantage by about .50% With ZEN it is about ½ as much. Remember that you start the game facing the House Advantage. That varies but in commonplace shoe games is generally between .33% and .68% So … you will need to have a True Count of Hi-Lo +1 or +2 before you can bet with a very thin advantage.
If you were to wager upon guessing the color of the next bean to be pulled from a jar of 99 Black Beans and 101 White Beans (knowing that composition) you would have a 2% edge. That would be nice to wager on WHITE but you'd have a LONG RUN ADVANTAGE. For a 1% edge, this jar would need to contain 199 Black Beans and 201 White Beans.
The thing that you must first realize is that a Card Counter, playing in the right games, with a good count, playing accurately — will tend to win over ⅔ of his sessions and have an overall advantage of about 1%.
If he is without a very large bankroll he will almost certainly go broke before he wins any substantial funds. Adequate is somewhere between 400 and 1,600 units, (depending on the game in question), and one's tolerance for Risk.
Understand that you will win about 43% of your hands and push about 9% of them. Your SOLE advantage is derived from increased Blackjack payoffs, increased money wagered on favorable doubles, and the ability to split pairs.
In HI-LO each change of +/- one T.C. increases/decreases your advantage by about .50% With ZEN it is about ½ as much. Remember that you start the game facing the House Advantage. That varies but in commonplace shoe games is generally between .33% and .68% So … you will need to have a True Count of Hi-Lo +1 or +2 before you can bet with a very thin advantage.
If you were to wager upon guessing the color of the next bean to be pulled from a jar of 99 Black Beans and 101 White Beans (knowing that composition) you would have a 2% edge. That would be nice to wager on WHITE but you'd have a LONG RUN ADVANTAGE. For a 1% edge, this jar would need to contain 199 Black Beans and 201 White Beans.
The thing that you must first realize is that a Card Counter, playing in the right games, with a good count, playing accurately — will tend to win over ⅔ of his sessions and have an overall advantage of about 1%.
If he is without a very large bankroll he will almost certainly go broke before he wins any substantial funds. Adequate is somewhere between 400 and 1,600 units, (depending on the game in question), and one's tolerance for Risk.
Understand that you will win about 43% of your hands and push about 9% of them. Your SOLE advantage is derived from increased Blackjack payoffs, increased money wagered on favorable doubles, and the ability to split pairs.
Ok i see. I figure I will focus on Zen like you said, it seems to be significantly more accurate. As for having a large bankroll, i do not. I plan on learning more about the game before I start betting big at casinos. I'm also only 18 and live in the northeast; there are very few casinos that I can even go to. And i believe in some of your older posts, you said that the one in upstate NY has many disadvantages for the player. Would you recommend I simply stay away from the casinos until I have more favoralble odds and a higher bank roll. Or is it worth playing with small amounts of money for the practice and experience?
Sucker,
Thanx for keeping a watchful eye on my often sloppy posts.
HMAC,
An 18 year old needs to know that without a sh*tload of greenbacks and a lot of study and practice he will not be in any position to attempt to play in a casino.
For the foreseeable future you need to Study and Practice at least an hour or two a day. All the while you'll need to save up a bankroll to capitalize your endeavor. Five or Ten thousand will suffice as a start-up bankroll. Long Ago (in my day) when good BJ games were ubiquitous and there wasn't much heat, you could have gotten away with less. You've a long row to hoe.
After you have amassed 10 posts I will mentor you in your studies if you are serious about studying BJ.
Thanx for keeping a watchful eye on my often sloppy posts.
HMAC,
An 18 year old needs to know that without a sh*tload of greenbacks and a lot of study and practice he will not be in any position to attempt to play in a casino.
For the foreseeable future you need to Study and Practice at least an hour or two a day. All the while you'll need to save up a bankroll to capitalize your endeavor. Five or Ten thousand will suffice as a start-up bankroll. Long Ago (in my day) when good BJ games were ubiquitous and there wasn't much heat, you could have gotten away with less. You've a long row to hoe.
After you have amassed 10 posts I will mentor you in your studies if you are serious about studying BJ.