Indian Reservations

  • Dyepaintball12

    Indian Reservations

    I was having a conversation with some guys this weekend so I just want to clear this up:

    On an Indian Reservation, the casino CAN refuse to cash out your chips, right?

    How far can they go? Take your chips from you at your table? Go into your room and take the cash they say “you stole from them?”

    – Dye

  • WRX

     

    I’m half amused and half exasperated when someone asks, “What is the law about such and such in Location X?” when the true situation is that THE LAW DOESN’T MATTER. And that’s the situation when you’re playing in Indian territory. In theory, there will be tribal law and law of the state where the casino is located that will all sound very standard and reasonable. The problem is, will you have any court or other forum available that will actually protect your rights? There have been reported cases of security guards at Indian casinos forcibly stealing APs’ entire bankrolls, and telling them to get lost, and they realized there wasn’t a thing they could do about it.

    It’s somewhat like asking what’s the law on being able to keep your winnings in a Russian casino, when what you should really be worrying about is the Russian Mafia.

    Your best protection is that Indian casinos usually won’t want the bad publicity that comes from blatantly cheating or stealing. Much as online casinos and poker rooms have usually wanted to maintain reputations for honesty, despite the lack of any effective way to take legal action against them if they aren’t honest. (However, that incentive may have been greatly watered down, given the likelihood that there’s no future for them in the U.S. market, in the face of the recent prosecutions.)

  • Severity8

     

    From my understanding no casino has to cash out your chips I was reading a book by a guy saying that an AP’er was stashing their chips in a locker on the property (kinda like lockers at an air port) so before they cashed out they let the guy hit them again let him stash his chips and leave property and then just went and cracked the lock and got their chips. And then got him on his next trip in, and that was in Vegas if I remember right. Granted it might have been in the 80’s or 90’s but….. as far as native casino’s go they are on sovereign land which is in the realm of federal gov. only not state, county or city and they don’t really mess with them at all they let their own tribal police deal with them. I was advised that if things go south in the casino/s I play in to hit the door and quick (Oklahoma only has native casinos), not that anything would happen per se’ but that I would have a lot harder time dealing with it in court. As far as the chips I thought they were looked at as IOU’s and were considered casino property. I know I’m wrong on several things so experienced gents’ feel free to berate me!

    Sev~

  • FLASH1296

     

    Indian casinos are, at least technically, on Indian Reservations.
    They are “sovereign states” and are NOT compelled to conform
    to State ~ or ~ Federal laws.

    I personally KNOW (as unmitigated fact) of a Card Counter who
    was severely beaten at Foxwoods, about a decade ago. The irony
    was that his brother who is an attorney in Hartford, had the task
    of visiting him in the I.C.U., (where he was recovering from internal
    injuries and multiple fractures), that he had NO legal recourse.

    Some Indian casinos in California, have been caught “red-handed”
    [no pun intended] cheating the public – without consequence.
    The most amazing of which was one tribe that admitted to using
    MARKED CARDS, but refused a California attorney a refund
    of the $74,000 that he had lost.

    Last year I was detained for hours by casino security staff, with the
    assistance of a State Police detective. Yes, Indian Tribes always
    have the option of using OUR courts, police, etc. – at THEIR discretion.

    “Abandon hope all ye who enter here.”

  • tthree

    Affects of lawlessness

    In a lawless society these types of things will be dealt with in a lawless way if they try it on the wrong person. I suspect they have run into this sort of limitation on their absolute authority before and have a plan to deal with it.

    I figure either you end up a “green spot” somewhere or you will be treated with respect if you can sell that they are in that situation when you are being shafted. I am sure there are people who quietly take their lumps and create a number of “green spots” of their own some time after the event.

    The circle of life shows that new life thrives on the death of others.

  • creeping panther

    Dye

    Quote: Dyepaintball12 said:
    I was having a conversation with some guys this weekend so I just want to clear this up:

    On an Indian Reservation, the casino CAN refuse to cash out your chips, right?

    How far can they go? Take your chips from you at your table? Go into your room and take the cash they say “you stole from them?”

    – Dye

    At a casino we both know well a very close friend, some 14 years ago, was refused cashing his chips, $3,700, and was trespassed because he refused to be back roomed and they did this because he “wanted to be a smart ass”. The guy was a CPA and the casino had a portfolio on him from another casino that he had taken for $66,000 in a month STing. I went back and cashed his chips over a 2 month time.

    The other instances I know for fact involved fake ID’s or the refusal to show ID, also in one instance the car was confiscated.

    Just always cash those chips,,I know you have many!

    But ya, they can do what they want, but you can appeal to the feds,,but not if you are caught with fake ID. In some places with the Tribal jail nearby, dig,,you could end up there for a 24 hour period.

    CP

  • exgriffinman

    Indian Casino

    I visited an Indian casino with some family in Oklahoma a couple years ago, We were playing and my son who was seventeen at the time had gotten carded and was asked to leave. This is understandable (I had sneaked him into casino’s before, many times in fact) anyway he went outside of the building and had a seat on a bench, waiting for us. Security then came up to him outside and told him he would have to leave the property (including the parking lot) in 2 minutes or he would be arrested for tresspass by tribal police. His phone was dead so he requested to go in the casino to tell me what was going on, security refused and said that was his problem. Meanwhile we are all inside totally unaware of what was going on.

    My son started walking through the parking lot towards the car exit when tribal police pulled up, Hancuffed him and took him into custody…About 45 minutes later we decided to find him and leave but we couldnt locate him.We contacted security and this pompus 20 something told me what had happened and that tribal police had him…

    I was absolutely pissed, I chewed him and three other people out before going to the tribal jail where I had to pay a $250 tresspassing fine before they would release him. it took two hours in a jail the size of my garage!!

    Needless to say, I don’t play there and am glad it’s not one of my favorites.

    EXGM

  • 21forme

     

    Quote: exgriffinman said:
    Needless to say, I don’t play there and am glad it’s not one of my favorites.

    EXGM

    If that happened to me, I WOULD go back and beat the crap out of their games!

  • paddywhack

     

    Quote: 21forme said:
    If that happened to me, I WOULD go back and beat the crap out of their games!

    x2

  • Midwestern

     

    Scary to think that we have no recourse at all against an Indian tribe. That said, ive encountered nothing but friendliness at Indian casinos before… They DO have a reputation to keep up after all.

  • FLASH1296

     

    Oh yeah, they welcome you, [and your wampum], with open arms,
    especially if you are a regular visitor who has not put a hurtin’ on them.

  • paddywhack

     

    Quote: FLASH1296 said:
    Oh yeah, they welcome you, [and your wampum], with open arms,
    especially if you are a regular visitor who has not put a hurtin’ on them.

    That they know of

  • Automatic Monkey

     

    As a general rule on a reservation apply the criminal law of the state where it is located, but not the civil law.

    An Indian cannot legally do something to you which would be a crime off the reservation. Nor can you do these things to him. But refusing to pay a debt is a civil matter and the tribe will claim (and receive) sovereign immunity if you take them to court for refusing to cash cheques or pay a jackpot.

    In the case of tribal police, by themselves they don’t have the authority to enforce tribal laws on and arrest non-tribal members, but many of them now have been deputized by the sheriffs or given peace officer status by their states, so they do have the power to arrest and detain, but only in accordance with state law.

  • blackjacktilt

     

    I personally KNOW (as unmitigated fact) of a Card Counter who
    was severely beaten at Foxwoods, about a decade ago. The irony
    was that his brother who is an attorney in Hartford, had the task
    of visiting him in the I.C.U., (where he was recovering from internal
    injuries and multiple fractures), that he had NO legal recourse.

    Really? I live in this area and never heard of this…. interesting

  • FLASH1296

    Facts on the Ground

    Blackjack tilt,

    Casinos do a bang-up job of keeping crime out of the media.

    Tiny towns, like Norwich, CT have one little newspaper and a very poorly paid constabulary that are easily bought.

    This is especially true when it comes to suicides and serious assaults.

    Last year I witnessed a poker player keel over and expire after going about 25 minutes without medical care of even rudimentary measures, while the casino is 0.01 miles distant. HUH ? Yes the hospital shares the same parking garage as the casino. The guy died, but the security staff and E.M.T.’s followed standard protocol; which is to put an oxygen mask on him and wheel him out while pretending that he is still alive.

    All law-enforcement peeps know full well that the casinos will always make sure that their own are well-taken care of come Christmas.

  • Automatic Monkey

     

    Quote: blackjacktilt said:
    I personally KNOW (as unmitigated fact) of a Card Counter who
    was severely beaten at Foxwoods, about a decade ago. The irony
    was that his brother who is an attorney in Hartford, had the task
    of visiting him in the I.C.U., (where he was recovering from internal
    injuries and multiple fractures), that he had NO legal recourse.

    Really? I live in this area and never heard of this…. interesting

    Who beat him? The CT stores are patrolled by CT state troopers, and if you are beaten by one of them there you have the same recourse as if you were beaten by a trooper anywhere else. Admittedly, police being what they are, that may be very little.

    The typical security guard at Foxwoods is in his 60’s and/or in terrible physical condition. They are not going to be detaining and beating anyone. Only rarely have I seen a casino security guard that looked like he could win a fight against someone who can fight. I’ve been threatened with beatings myself at Foxwoods, just never by a cop and never by a casino employee.

  • nicetrades200303

     

    Quote: Automatic Monkey said:
    As a general rule on a reservation apply the criminal law of the state where it is located, but not the civil law.

    An Indian cannot legally do something to you which would be a crime off the reservation. Nor can you do these things to him. But refusing to pay a debt is a civil matter and the tribe will claim (and receive) sovereign immunity if you take them to court for refusing to cash cheques or pay a jackpot.

    In the case of tribal police, by themselves they don’t have the authority to enforce tribal laws on and arrest non-tribal members, but many of them now have been deputized by the sheriffs or given peace officer status by their states, so they do have the power to arrest and detain, but only in accordance with state law.

    Oh, my God! Really? This Indian reservation casinos stuff sounds scary. So realistically, the casinos oversee themselves? What good is the gaming commission then?

    So they can backroom you because backrooming someone is unlawful detainment, but you can’t sue them because backrooming is only a civil violation, not a criminal violation?

    I have some suspicions about the decks that an Indian casino uses, and I had thought of asking them to spread the cards to verify before I play. Now I am not so sure I want to do that. I don’t want to get backroomed and beaten up just for asking and not being able to sue them.

    And, theoretically, if you experienced AP’s out there win a lot at an Indian casino, they don’t have to cash your chips? And maybe they don’t even have to pay you your 2K bet plus the splits and double down?

    I was in favor of new Indian casinos opening up to create jobs. I wonder if I was wrong.

    I am worried now. I only have access to Indian casinos. I guess it’s time to move on to casinos on U.S. soil (AC, Vegas) then, right?

  • blackjacktilt

     

    Quote: FLASH1296 said:
    Blackjack tilt,

    Casinos do a bang-up job of keeping crime out of the media.

    Tiny towns, like Norwich, CT have one little newspaper and a very poorly paid constabulary that are easily bought.

    This is especially true when it comes to suicides and serious assaults.

    Last year I witnessed a poker player keel over and expire after going about 25 minutes without medical care of even rudimentary measures, while the casino is 0.01 miles distant. HUH ? Yes the hospital shares the same parking garage as the casino. The guy died, but the security staff and E.M.T.’s followed standard protocol; which is to put an oxygen mask on him and wheel him out while pretending that he is still alive.

    All law-enforcement peeps know full well that the casinos will always make sure that their own are well-taken care of come Christmas.

    I’m not disputing anything you say, you have no doubt experienced alot more in your lifetime than I have in mine. No disrespect but, I just find it hard to believe. I know that when an opportunity to make Foxwoods look bad presents itself, it is always taken advantage of. I find it hard to believe this guy didn’t go to the media or report it to State Police. Maybe he settled out of court, who knows.

  • blackjacktilt

     

    Quote: Automatic Monkey said:
    Who beat him? The CT stores are patrolled by CT state troopers, and if you are beaten by one of them there you have the same recourse as if you were beaten by a trooper anywhere else. Admittedly, police being what they are, that may be very little.

    The typical security guard at Foxwoods is in his 60’s and/or in terrible physical condition. They are not going to be detaining and beating anyone. Only rarely have I seen a casino security guard that looked like he could win a fight against someone who can fight. I’ve been threatened with beatings myself at Foxwoods, just never by a cop and never by a casino employee.

    Those security guys are a sad looking bunch.. Hate to see something real go down

  • FLASH1296

     

    The beating was administered by a Native American Guy who was NOT in uniform, and was built like a fullback.

  • Automatic Monkey

     

    Quote: FLASH1296 said:
    The beating was administered by a Native American Guy who was NOT in uniform, and was built like a fullback.

    If he had the appearance of an American Indian, he is no relation to the “tribe” that runs Foxwoods. They are mislabeled Negroes.

  • ninous26

     

    Quote: FLASH1296 said:
    Indian casinos are, at least technically, on Indian Reservations.
    They are “sovereign states” and are NOT compelled to conform
    to State ~ or ~ Federal laws.

    I personally KNOW (as unmitigated fact) of a Card Counter who
    was severely beaten at Foxwoods, about a decade ago. The irony
    was that his brother who is an attorney in Hartford, had the task
    of visiting him in the I.C.U., (where he was recovering from internal
    injuries and multiple fractures), that he had NO legal recourse.

    Some Indian casinos in California, have been caught “red-handed”
    [no pun intended] cheating the public – without consequence.
    The most amazing of which was one tribe that admitted to using
    MARKED CARDS, but refused a California attorney a refund
    of the $74,000 that he had lost.

    Last year I was detained for hours by casino security staff, with the
    assistance of a State Police detective. Yes, Indian Tribes always
    have the option of using OUR courts, police, etc. – at THEIR discretion.

    “Abandon hope all ye who enter here.”

    This man speaks the truth.. Sons of bitches.. Last year on my birthday I had an incident with security in a parking garage.. I got arrested (DUI/ slightest degree) and had to go to a city court completely off Indian land. They also had highway patrol there as “backup”.

  • creeping panther

    nin

    Would you rather be arrested for DUI OR MANSLAUGHTER

    They may have done you a favor.

    No drinkng at all if you plan on driving.

    CP

  • blackjack avenger

    A Bit of Vindication

    I made several posts about a month ago talking about the importance of not being greedy. The responses hurt my feelings and I did not post for a few weeks. I am sure to the delight of many!

    I guess one needs to throw a lot of camo, don’t stay to long and not be greedy

    General Custer thought he could ride through indian country with 100 men, one needs to know their limitations!

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