Software used to track play

  • dcjoey

    Software used to track play

    Does anyone know what it is? Mostly curious as I was in Vegas this past week and had a great shoe, when I went to cash out the cashier said “Whoa, nice shoe!” and I asked him how he knew that.

    He said they can see everything when they pull up your players card (which makes sense but I didn’t think everyone had access to it).

    Anyway, now I’m curious about the software and want to learn more about it.

  • BJgenius007

     

    Quote: dcjoey said:
    Does anyone know what it is? Mostly curious as I was in Vegas this past week and had a great shoe, when I went to cash out the cashier said “Whoa, nice shoe!” and I asked him how he knew that.

    He said they can see everything when they pull up your players card (which makes sense but I didn’t think everyone had access to it).

    Anyway, now I’m curious about the software and want to learn more about it.

    My local casino uses chips with RFID. Under the betting spots, there are RFID readers. So they know how much you win or lose every hand.

  • flyingwind

     

    which vegas place were you at that has this bet tracking software?

  • dcjoey

     

    Quote: BJgenius007 said:
    My local casino uses chips with RFID. Under the betting spots, there are RFID readers. So they know how much you win or lose every hand.

    Makes total sense but I had no idea. Poked around online and it looks like most of the casinos switched to RFIDs around 2005 (at least, published).

    If everything is auto tracked what use does the pit boss serve at tables, other than observing play?

    Everywhere I’ve seen people (including me) think that pit bosses adjust the average play per hand with what they see when they walk around; I’ve even asked some pit bosses about it and they say they will “rate me well”…. just wondering how that jives with the RFIDs and software.

  • flyingwind

     

    do you play the store with rfid or do you avoid it? if you play, do you use some kind of precautions?

  • dcjoey

     

    Quote: flyingwind said:
    which vegas place were you at that has this bet tracking software?

    Not sure if you’re referring to me or other poster but I played at Cosmo.

    I knew about the recent Bellagio robbery and how the guy basically couldn’t cash in the chips but it turns out they deactivated the RFIDs in those specific chips so no one could have cashed them in even if they wanted to.

    http://singularityhub.com/2011/02/12/1-5m-robbery-of-bellagio-casino-foiled-thanks-to-rfid-chips/

  • tthree

     

    Quote: BJgenius007 said:
    My local casino uses chips with RFID. Under the betting spots, there are RFID readers. So they know how much you win or lose every hand.

    So much for all this ratholing chips talk.

  • kewljason

     

    Quote: tthree said:
    So much for all this ratholing chips talk.

    Most places in Vegas that do use RFID chips only do so in the larger denomination chips and won’t effect those of us playing green/black or red/green.

    However, in my mind, the use of all RFID chips could have benefits as well. Mainly speeding up the game. There would be no need for delays while 2 different pit members count down and add up the chips in the rack. That could be done instantly from somewhere else. There would be no need for a delay while the dealer waits for the pit to check buy-ins and color ups. Again verified instantly from someplace else. Time is money.

    If I worked in the pit, I wouldn’t see this as a great development, though.

  • bj21abc

    RFID chip denominations

    Specifically for Bellagio – from the article –
    “:Their real value, however, was zero. Thanks to RFID tags embedded inside them, the chips with denominations of $100 to $25,000 could be immediately deactivated rendering them unredeemable for cash value. ”

    I would assume that many casinos do not make full use of RFID chip possibilities – the accompanying systems, software, training, etc must be pricey.

    Also – from http://www.techrepublic.com/article/vegas-casino-bets-on-rfid/ [form 2005…]
    “Eye in the sky
    The technology could also help casinos catch card players who sneak extra betting chips onto the table after hands are dealt or players who count cards. That’s one reason the Hard Rock Hotel and Casino in Las Vegas plans to switch on a new set of RFID-equipped betting chips and tables next month.

    The casino is installing RFID readers and PCs at game tables. With antennas placed under each player’s place at the table, dealers can take a quick inventory of chips that have been wagered at the push of a button. The PCs display all the initial bets, deterring players from sneaking extra chips into their pile after hands are dealt.”

  • flyingwind

     

    Just pointing out that per the above article, seems like black chips are included, so it MAY impact the green/black player. Of course, there’s a simple work around that doesn’t need to be spelled out.

  • Gamblor

     

    I seriously doubt OPs story is wholly and entirely the truth.

  • ningtong88

     

    I always wonder about how RFID determines you are playing multiple hands. If you are playing 2 spots , how does the computer know to rate you twice as much?

  • dcjoey

     

    Quote: Gamblor said:
    I seriously doubt OPs story is wholly and entirely the truth.

    Uh what is there to doubt? Why would I make up something so trivial.

    Anyway, if anyone else has something productive to add would appreciate hearing it.

  • Gamblor

     

    Quote: dcjoey said:
    Uh what is there to doubt? Why would I make up something so trivial.

    Anyway, if anyone else has something productive to add would appreciate hearing it.

    It’s a bunch of things that you wrote and what you wrote and how you wrote that make me think you are someone with some sort of agenda and misrepresenting things.

  • BJgenius007

     

    Quote: Gamblor said:
    It’s a bunch of things that you wrote and what you wrote and how you wrote that make me think you are someone with some sort of agenda and misrepresenting things.

    Come on. He only had 4 posts before this. Even a genius like me can’t profile someone with so little information.

  • dcjoey

     

    Quote: BJgenius007 said:
    Come on. He only had 4 posts before this. Even a genius like me can’t profile someone with so little information.

    lol good point.

    believe it or not, not everyone who joins the board here is a complete noob.

    although it does seem like the actual software casinos use to track play isn’t readily apparent.

    and if i have any sort of agenda it’s how to maximize my money in vegas!

  • Gamblor

     

    Quote: BJgenius007 said:
    Come on. He only had 4 posts before this. Even a genius like me can’t profile someone with so little information.

    Well, exactly That’s in general something of a red flag until proven otherwise. Also not so much what info he’s putting out, its also what he’s not putting out, if that makes sense.

  • Gamblor

     

    Quote: dcjoey said:
    and if i have any sort of agenda it’s how to maximize my money in vegas!

    This I have no doubt

  • flyingwind

     

    Quote: “kewljason”:
    Most places in Vegas that do use RFID chips…

    Can some please pm me the list of places in LV that uses RFID?
    At these places, do the dealers push a button during each round?

  • dcjoey

     

    Quote: flyingwind said:
    Can some please pm me the list of places in LV that uses RFID?
    At these places, do the dealers push a button during each round?

    From various sources online not all casinos are using RFIDS apparently, and the ones that do typically only use it for higher denominations (black and up).

    I’m speculating here but the whole idea of using the system would be to automate tracking/logging so it’s probably an automatic system (no button pushing).

  • Liquid Chips

     

    There are a couple of things that concern me about use of RFIDs in caisno chips and under each spot on the table.

    I don’t mind that there are RFID chips being used and tracking how much you bet. But I do mind if the table is using CSMs in combination with RFIDs. This would be like tracking HOW you bet and anticipating your bet size on the next hand and manipulating the draw of cards to you. It would be like playing at an online casino that analyzes your style of play and draws cards accordingly to make you lose overall. I highly suspect this was the case last month when I played at one of those Shufflemaster I-tables with a CSM and a touch-screen computer at each player’s post embedded in the table. The casino knows what card is going to you and knowing how you play, the cards can be manipulated. The player card has my history and I have won over $2,000 on two trips previously. I was again up by $400 when the CSM started jamming up on the dealer causing him to have to take several tries to get a card. I started to lose a lot more often and getting strange hands. Later, when the dealer notified the pit boss about the cards being bent strangely, that was when I started thinking that the cards are being manipulated within the CSM.

    So I now only will play regular manual shoe games or at tables with a CSM if I know that no RFIDs are used or if the RFIDs are only used for tracking bets but not analyzing betting strategy.

  • nicetrades200303

     

    Quote: flyingwind said:
    Can some please pm me the list of places in LV that uses RFID?
    At these places, do the dealers push a button during each round?

    The places on the strip and away from the strip that have decent pen (2D or 6D) that I play at, the dealers don’t push a button each round as there are no buttons on the table to push.

    A couple of Indian casinos I play at have those buttons on the table, and the dealers do push the button prior to dealing each round. I ignorantly asked most of the dealers why they push the button and was told that “So we can keep track of your play for comps.” It’s more than just for comps: It’s probably for tracking your spread, too.

  • BJgenius007

     

    Quote: Liquid Chips said:
    There are a couple of things that concern me about use of RFIDs in caisno chips and under each spot on the table.

    I don’t mind that there are RFID chips being used and tracking how much you bet. But I do mind if the table is using CSMs in combination with RFIDs. This would be like tracking HOW you bet and anticipating your bet size on the next hand and manipulating the draw of cards to you. It would be like playing at an online casino that analyzes your style of play and draws cards accordingly to make you lose overall. I highly suspect this was the case last month when I played at one of those Shufflemaster I-tables with a CSM and a touch-screen computer at each player’s post embedded in the table. The casino knows what card is going to you and knowing how you play, the cards can be manipulated. The player card has my history and I have won over $2,000 on two trips previously. I was again up by $400 when the CSM started jamming up on the dealer causing him to have to take several tries to get a card. I started to lose a lot more often and getting strange hands. Later, when the dealer notified the pit boss about the cards being bent strangely, that was when I started thinking that the cards are being manipulated within the CSM.

    So I now only will play regular manual shoe games or at tables with a CSM if I know that no RFIDs are used or if the RFIDs are only used for tracking bets but not analyzing betting strategy.

    You are confused. iTables don’t use CSM. They use ASM to shuffle the entire 8 decks, then put the entire 8 decks to a container of tight room. So there is no way or room to swap cards inside that container.

    But this happened to me twice. The TC was super high and I placed max bets. After playing two hands and TC stayed high, the red alert lighted on. The dealer called pit boss to the table. The pit boss said there is something wrong with the deck. They need to reshuffle.

  • Gamblor

     

    Quote: BJgenius007 said:
    You are confused. iTables don’t use CSM. They use ASM to shuffle the entire 8 decks, then put the entire 8 decks to a container of tight room. So there is no way or room to swap cards inside that container.

    But this happened to me twice. The TC was super high and I placed max bets. After playing two hands and TC stayed high, the red alert lighted on. The dealer called pit boss to the table. The pit boss said there is something wrong with the deck. They need to reshuffle.

    I’ve never seen such a contraption, you mean they don’t use the clear plastic shoe found in most casinos?

    Hmm if this is true, maybe you can start up a nice lawsuit Positive EV!

  • flyingwind

     

    Quote: BJgenius007 said:
    But this happened to me twice. The TC was super high and I placed max bets. After playing two hands and TC stayed high, the red alert lighted on. The dealer called pit boss to the table. The pit boss said there is something wrong with the deck. They need to reshuffle.
    Quote: Gamblor said:
    Hmm if this is true, maybe you can start up a nice lawsuit Positive EV!

    I second what G said, if indeed what you BJG described truly happens the majority of the time you play there.

The BlackjackInfo Knowledge Base contains over 200,000 messages posted by the BlackjackInfo community.

Posting and replies to the knowledge base are no longer available, but comments and replies are welcomed on the blog.