AP vs Cheat

  • Percy

    AP vs Cheat

    An extract from Steve Forte’s Casino Game Protection reads:

    “Often, when you compare the cheater to the legitimate card counter or advantage player, the only distinction you will find is one of legality”

    I was quite surprised by this, what does everyone else think?

  • tthree

     

    Quote: Percy said:
    An extract from Steve Forte’s Casino Game Protection reads:

    “Often, when you compare the cheater to the legitimate card counter or advantage player, the only distinction you will find is one of legality”

    I was quite surprised by this, what does everyone else think?

    Look at the source.

  • creeping panther

    Forte

    Forte needs to have a discussion on this matter with an AP who is not a pussy in a very private location.

    CP

  • blackjack avenger

    the courts have decided

    He needs to be sued

  • kewljason

     

    I think you guys are taking things too personal. He didn’t say that card counters and AP were cheaters. He specifically said that the law distinguishes that they are not. He was simple stating, that from the casinos point of view, both activities one legal, the other not legal, will have the same outcome, to harm the bottom line and as such both are viewed as unfavorable and undesirable by the casino. Nothing new here. Not sure what you all are getting so worked up about?

  • Richard Munchkin

     

    Sorry, I agree with Steve. Both the cheater, and the advantage player are looking for ways to extract money from a casino.

    I played with computers when it was legal. Then they changed the law so I stopped. Someone who plays with a computer now is cheating. Is that person so different than me?

    Some players practice thousands of hours trying to control dice. They are trying to control the outcome of the game, and this is not cheating. Someone who slides the dice is cheating. Are those players really so different?

  • creeping panther

    Richard

    Quote: Richard Munchkin said:
    Sorry, I agree with Steve. Both the cheater, and the advantage player are looking for ways to extract money from a casino.

    I played with computers when it was legal. Then they changed the law so I stopped. Someone who plays with a computer now is cheating. Is that person so different than me?

    Some players practice thousands of hours trying to control dice. They are trying to control the outcome of the game, and this is not cheating. Someone who slides the dice is cheating. Are those players really so different?

    Geez man,,you just made no sense at all

    CP

  • David Spence

     

    Quote: Percy said:
    An extract from Steve Forte’s Casino Game Protection reads:

    “Often, when you compare the cheater to the legitimate card counter or advantage player, the only distinction you will find is one of legality”

    Steve is simply giving an accurate definition of two professions, with which I completely agree.

    I think we sometimes make the mistake of confusing what is legal and what is moral. Hole carding, for example, has been found in the courts to be legal. Even if someone considers the practice immoral, it’s inaccurate to call a hole carder a cheater; he simply is an immoral AP in that person’s opinion.

    Steve’s definition wisely avoids the murky area of morality.

  • creeping panther

    David

    Quote: David Spence said:
    Steve is simply giving an accurate definition of two professions, with which I completely agree.

    I think we sometimes make the mistake of confusing what is legal and what is moral. Hole carding, for example, has been found in the courts to be legal. Even if someone considers the practice immoral, it’s inaccurate to call a hole carder a cheater; he simply is an immoral AP in that person’s opinion.

    Steve’s definition wisely avoids the murky area of morality.

    Murky morality, hmmm,,cute,,,I consider the casino, hands down, as extremely immoral, and any one who can turn the tables on them is “high Five” in my book Nothing “murky” there David.

    Well Dave, while we are at it,,,what side of the fence are you,,,on??

    CP

  • Gamblor

     

    Quote: Percy said:
    “Often, when you compare the cheater to the legitimate card counter or advantage player, the only distinction you will find is one of legality”

    “Often, when you compare a rapist to the legitimate man making love with his wife, the only distinction you will find is one of legality”

    People say things in certain ways, while being totally and technically accurate, of course can convey different things, in this case, intentionally in all likelihood.

  • David Spence

     

    I’m on the side of the fence that tries to take as much money from casinos as possible using any legal means.

    That said, I generally avoid shottaking. When a shottaking opportunity is presented, and I let it go, I sometimes even think something to the effect of, “That would be beneath me.” But when I look back on it, I realize that I’m lying to myself! The reason I don’t take shots is not because of some moral high ground; it’s that it’s generally a bad long-term strategy. Sure, taking a few shots might make a few hundred dollars, but if the welcome mat is withdrawn because someone sees me as a shottaker, that might cost me orders of magnitude more in lost opportunity.

  • blackjack avenger

    i call BS

    Everyone who enters a casino
    Tries & wants to win
    There is a range of skills of the patrons
    The casinos can set the rules
    Can ply their patrons often with free drinks
    & they can determine who plays based on their discrimination

    Ever see casino staff let a drumk play on?

    They even call APs cheats, immoral and compare to criminals and apparently even some APs buy the propoganda. I am shocked that many seem not angered by his statement.

    It’s very clear his intent, that APs are just like crimimals only protected by law. This type of cultute is why APs can get abused by security or police because we are considered just like criminals.

    APs are nothing like criminals!!!

    Criminals drive cars so everyone who drives has the characteristics of a criminal?
    Everyone who enters a casino tries to win, so all are criminals?

  • blackjack avenger

    history

    Some seem to have forgotten or never new the violence casinos have perpetrated against APs & civilians because of this casino culture of labeling APs cheats & criminals. It’s really something APs should be very sensitive to so the court rulings don’t get turned back.

    If your a BJ player would you like to be thought of as cheater, criminal in the public eye?

  • creeping panther

    David

    Quote: David Spence said:
    I’m on the side of the fence that tries to take as much money from casinos as possible using any legal means.

    That said, I generally avoid shottaking. When a shottaking opportunity is presented, and I let it go, I sometimes even think something to the effect of, “That would be beneath me.” But when I look back on it, I realize that I’m lying to myself! The reason I don’t take shots is not because of some moral high ground; it’s that it’s generally a bad long-term strategy. Sure, taking a few shots might make a few hundred dollars, but if the welcome mat is withdrawn because someone sees me as a shottaker, that might cost me orders of magnitude more in lost opportunity.

    David, you are only fooling yourself. When the casino sees you as a threat, because your game has SKILLZ, it matters not how nice you are, how well you tip, how much you chat up the pit, how well you dress, but only that you have SKILLZ, then they will put their boot up your Arse and throw your well behaved self out the door and maybe worse,,,maybe then their local cops, on the pay roll of the casino, will do another number on you. And all this time, you never took any “shots”, as you call it.

    CP

  • zengrifter

     

    Quote: Percy said:
    An extract from Steve Forte’s Casino Game Protection reads:

    “Often, when you compare the cheater to the legitimate card counter or advantage player, the only distinction you will find is one of legality”

    I was quite surprised by this, what does everyone else think?

    Cheating IS AP.

    In days of old there was no distinction – even the best poker players of 20+ years ago were inclined towards “cheating” if they had the right prospect.

    Lawrence Revere also comes to mind. zg

  • David Spence

     

    Quote: creeping panther said:
    David, you are only fooling yourself. When the casino sees you as a threat, because your game has SKILLZ, it matters not how nice you are, how well you tip, how much you chat up the pit, how well you dress, but only that you have SKILLZ, then they will put their boot up your Arse and throw your well behaved self out the door and maybe worse,,,maybe then their local cops, on the pay roll of the casino, will do another number on you. And all this time, you never took any “shots”, as you call it.

    CP

    By “shottaking,” I specifically mean things such as betting more than the game allows, making ambiguous hand signals, making “accidental” bets, etc. None of these has nearly the long-term value of, say, hole carding, which I engage in at every opportunity. Hole carding and other high-edge moves are much less on the casinos’ radar than shottaking, with significantly greater expectation. I made no mention of attire, niceness, tips, or chat, so why introduce those elements to the discussion?

    Someone much wiser than I once said, on page 231, “The dealer’s primordial enemy is not the professional player; it is The Shottaker.”

  • Machinist

     

    I am in agreement with the statement. I hope casinos really do believe this stuff. And here’s why…..I want to be back roomed, i want a cop and or security to rough me up a bit.
    I want that multimillion dollar lawsuit. I want them to believe i am cheating,,,, I am prepared….(i think)
    Legal shmegal,,,,,,,,,get the money…run along the gray line if the game allows…
    But , hey what do i know……

    Machinist

  • Sucker

     

    Quote: Percy said:
    “Often, when you compare the cheater to the legitimate card counter or advantage player, the only distinction you will find is one of legality”

    Keeping in mind the fact that he prefaced this statement with the word “Often”, and not “Always”; how is his statement incorrect?

    For example: I don’t mark cards. But I use every legal means I can think of to beat the casino. If card marking were legal, I would probably also be a card marker. So obviously; the only distinction between me and a cheater is one of legality. I fit into Forte’s statement perfectly – and I know for a fact that I’m not the only AP who feels this way!

  • Lonesome Gambler

     

    David really nailed it here. Forte isn’t making an comments on the ethics of advantage play; he’s simply observing that advantage play techniques strive to achieve by legal means what the cheater tries to achieve by non-legal means.

    One of the most popular collusion scams involves a dealer flashing her hole card to an agent at the table. The hole card player is trying to achieve the same effect, but since the dealer is ostensibly not exposing the card(s) on purpose, this is legal.

    A past-poster is attempting to collect an unfair payoff, while a legitimate AP may seek out a game specifically because he knows that the dealer is prone to making payoff errors in their favor on a regular basis. A cheater marks cards to determine the value of face-down cards or cards waiting to be dealt; an AP may play warps, unintentionally marked cards, and so on.

    I do agree that this is a bit oversimplified, but cheaters and APs are generally trying to do the same thing: win money from the casino by using methods that the casino does not approve of and (hopefully) does not catch on to. Both use deception to achieve this goal.

    I personally think there is a huge difference between cheaters and APs when taking into considerations such as ethics and intent, but Forte’s statement is pretty hard to argue with.

  • creeping panther

    Lonesome

    Than it seems to me you can say the same thing, and apply the same logic, to a person who holds a legal job and goes to work each day, and a bank robber, what the hell, they are both after the same thing, money, just using a different method.

    CP

  • Brock Windsor

     

    Quote: kewljason said:
    I think you guys are taking things too personal. He didn’t say that card counters and AP were cheaters. He specifically said that the law distinguishes that they are not. He was simple stating, that from the casinos point of view, both activities one legal, the other not legal, will have the same outcome, to harm the bottom line and as such both are viewed as unfavorable and undesirable by the casino. Nothing new here. Not sure what you all are getting so worked up about?

    That’s how I interpreted it.

  • aslan

     

    Quote: blackjack avenger said:

    Ever see casino staff let a drumk play on?

    T

    Ha! Even more likely, I’ll bet you’ve never seen a casino let one of their employees drink on the job, but they do provide free drinks for “guests.”

  • blackjack avenger

    guess we should all agree

    Let casinos portray us in the same light as CRIMINALS! Because this serves the AP community and the individuals in the community

    Ummm what was the lawsuit against Griffin detective agency about? Oh yeah, calling APs cheats! Thank goodness courts note the distinction in spite of casino ilk!

    A bank robber and someone making a withdrawl “often” shar

      e the same characteristics of withdrawing money from the bank! Little distinction: they both wear shoes, approach the teller, etc.

      Isn’t there a push now to make counting illegal in Ohio? Subtle distinction of words and beliefs matter.

    1. kewljason

       

      Quote: blackjack avenger said:
      Isn’t there a push now to make counting illegal in Ohio? Subtle distinction of words and beliefs matter.

      I haven’t followed what’s going on in Ohio. Is there a link to this information? I find it hard to believe Ohio is going to make thinking illegal? No state has said that card counting is illegal. What is debated is how they allow casinos to protect themselves. If casinos feel they can’t protect themselves, they will simply refuse to offer a decent game as most of AC does.

      Once the casino decides they don’t want a players action, it makes little difference to a card counter whether they can bar players or not. Whether they bar the player or shuffle at will, he is out of action. But prior to that decision, allowing casinos to bar players the way Nevada and most of the rest of the country does is far superior for the player. When casinos feel they can protect themselves they are more likely to offer better conditions and deal with the problem on an individual level. This allows the player to probe and figure out just what the tolerance level is for each location.

      Having spent 5 years with AC as my home base and now 2+ with Las Vegas, it is pretty clear to me that the way Vegas and most of the rest of the country does it, allowing casinos to ban and bar players is far more advantageous for the player. Kenny did no one a favor by forcing Jersey’s hand.

    2. David Spence

       

      Forte’s statement does imply that the distinction between an AP and a cheater can be arbitrary, and Munchkin’s examples certainly further this point. I think it’s hard to draw good analogies between different forms of casino play and, say, rape or torture. If the laws were to change suddenly, even someone prone to confusing morality with legality would still be unlikely to consider rape or torture moral. We shouldn’t take what we do too seriously.

      I think part of the reason most APs are so careful not to cheat is simply a love of and respect for games: present me with the rules, and I’ll figure out how to be the best player within those rules. When I decided to become a good backgammon player, for example, I chose to study books, join a backgammon club, have my dad teach me, etc., instead of the possibly shorter path of learning some method of cheating.

      By the same token, our hatred of casinos at least partially stems from their lack of respect for the rules. When they can’t win within the rules, which are even stacked in their favor against the vast majority of opponents, the casinos don’t hesitate to break the rules with false accusations, false imprisonment, assault, etc. The casinos’ most common response to losing–“If I can’t win, I’m taking my football and going home!”–though within the rules, certainly doesn’t show respect for the game.

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