Advanced Strategy Information Censorship

  • apex

    Advanced Strategy Information Censorship

    Somewhere in the Midwest, a young advantage player plays an HC game less than optimally, and a casino keeps slightly more money than it should. This midwesterner has scoured the internet and attempted to purchase an expensive, thick book in hopes of obtaining the information he seeks, yet he fails to find the answers. The information cannot be found online, and the book does not seem to be for sale. He tries to ask for help on the best internet forum he knows, and the post is quickly deleted. He must be on to something! This method must be very profitable if everyone is so protective of it. As a last option, the AP does his best to come up with his own answers, which are probably marginally correct at best, but will be posted soon and probably taken down shortly after.

    Now I am sick of talking in the 3rd person, and would like to ask a question. Why are we censoring this information? Holecarding is mentioned here along with many other techniques. It is safe to say that any casino staff lurking the forums are aware of holecarding. Holecarding strategy for 3CP can be found on this site, and even on wizard of odds. Do you really think that Casino staff doesn’t know that this other game can’t be holecarded? I would say that is possible if they don’t know about HCing at all, but if they are aware of it they must be aware that the HC information in this game can help the player.

    So my arguement is this: The word is out. The dammage is done. HC games are rare. But we might as well at least know how to play them correctly if we find one. So can we talk about this?

  • KenSmith

     

    The policy here is to remove information on techniques which are not considered publicly available, or published somewhere else. The book you mention is an interesting exception. While it does include details on many of these types of opportunities, the book itself is now difficult to obtain, as you have learned. The author made that decision and I consider much of the detail he described as “not publicly available” as a result.

    Is this fair to people that aren’t connected enough to get the information through private channels? No, I admit it is not. But I prefer to err on the side of caution when it comes to preserving opportunities that are likely providing an income for many serious players.

    You have a few options:
    1) Establish a trust relationship with players already exploiting the games you are interested in. Sharing of information in that context is much more common. P.S. This won’t be an easy effort.

    2) Learn to program sufficiently well to do your own research. Running your own numbers means you’ll be prepared for anything you discover in the future.

    3) Hope that the book author reconsiders his decision to not provide the book to you or others.

    I sympathize with your situation, but I do not want this website to be the reason that some opportunities disappear sooner than they should. Some censorship is in the best interest of the community.

    Actually, on that note, one of my projects for the new year was to write up something of a mission statement for the site. It would perhaps yield some insight into the decision process here. Hopefully I’ll make some time for that soon.

  • zengrifter

     

    This should be stickied in Site forum. zg

  • apex

     

    Quote: KenSmith said:
    The policy here is to remove information on techniques which are not considered publicly available, or published somewhere else. The book you mention is an interesting exception. While it does include details on many of these types of opportunities, the book itself is now difficult to obtain, as you have learned. The author made that decision and I consider much of the detail he described as “not publicly available” as a result.

    Is this fair to people that aren’t connected enough to get the information through private channels? No, I admit it is not. But I prefer to err on the side of caution when it comes to preserving opportunities that are likely providing an income for many serious players.

    You have a few options:
    1) Establish a trust relationship with players already exploiting the games you are interested in. Sharing of information in that context is much more common. P.S. This won’t be an easy effort.

    2) Learn to program sufficiently well to do your own research. Running your own numbers means you’ll be prepared for anything you discover in the future.

    3) Hope that the book author reconsiders his decision to not provide the book to you or others.

    I sympathize with your situation, but I do not want this website to be the reason that some opportunities disappear sooner than they should. Some censorship is in the best interest of the community.

    Actually, on that note, one of my projects for the new year was to write up something of a mission statement for the site. It would perhaps yield some insight into the decision process here. Hopefully I’ll make some time for that soon.

    Fair enough. Thanks for the fast answer.

  • Machinist

     

    Quote: apex said:
    Somewhere in the Midwest, a young advantage player plays an HC game less than optimally, and a casino keeps slightly more money than it should. This midwesterner has scoured the internet and attempted to purchase an expensive, thick book in hopes of obtaining the information he seeks, yet he fails to find the answers. The information cannot be found online, and the book does not seem to be for sale. He tries to ask for help on the best internet forum he knows, and the post is quickly deleted. He must be on to something! This method must be very profitable if everyone is so protective of it. As a last option, the AP does his best to come up with his own answers, which are probably marginally correct at best, but will be posted soon and probably taken down shortly after.

    Now I am sick of talking in the 3rd person, and would like to ask a question. Why are we censoring this information? Holecarding is mentioned here along with many other techniques. It is safe to say that any casino staff lurking the forums are aware of holecarding. Holecarding strategy for 3CP can be found on this site, and even on wizard of odds. Do you really think that Casino staff doesn’t know that this other game can’t be holecarded? I would say that is possible if they don’t know about HCing at all, but if they are aware of it they must be aware that the HC information in this game can help the player.

    So my arguement is this: The word is out. The dammage is done. HC games are rare. But we might as well at least know how to play them correctly if we find one. So can we talk about this?

    APEX…….you will understand your own questions much clearer when your questions get answered in time. I have no doubt with persiverence you will get them answered. Friends are the key…and time…… This stuff isnt just given away willy nilly… Nobody knows you and you dont know anybody on this site.
    The Chat sessions are a great way to make friends…It takes time though to build trust.
    Keep surfing Ebay….every once in a while the artcle in question pops up…
    As far as the stores knowing or not knowing about this subject…….hit the road and make your own assumptions…
    Hcing is not the be all…………in fact alot of people say it’s DEAD i tell ya DEAD!!!!!!!!! APEX thats an inside joke with a few on this site
    On a side note i didnt realize the article was off the market…..
    And thanks Ken for addressing this issue..
    NOW please remove this issue !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Machinist

  • blackjack101

     

    Wait, so..HCing is apparently possible? A source to learn proper technique is out there? And it is highly profitable (for obvious reasons)? Hmmm….googleing as we speak…

  • NightStalker

    not sure why we need to make this thread sticky?

    ideally should have been deleted !!!

  • zengrifter

     

    Quote: blackjack101 said:
    Wait, so..HCing is apparently possible? A source to learn proper technique is out there? And it is highly profitable (for obvious reasons)? Hmmm….googleing as we speak…

    Not referring to BJ referring to a new poker carnival game. zg

  • mjbballar23

     

    I think the censoring of information is 100% necessary. Yes, it is frustrating that you cant find the answer to your problems/questions by typing it in Google. At the same time, how great will it be when you find out the answer for yourself and nobody else knows about it? We have to respect the individuals that put in the time to figure out new ways of beating games. It is only fair.

  • moo321

     

    In reality, very few casino personnel know **** about game protection. The sharp ones may know to watch for bet variation, but I’ve only seen a handful of these. And holecarding, forget about it. Most of them wouldn’t know a holecarder unless he showed up wearing a sandwich board sign that said “I Play Holecards”.

    How would you feel if you were making a living off of some opportunity, and suddenly it got posted, and died?

  • zengrifter

     

    Quote: moo321 said:
    How would you feel if you were making a living off of some opportunity, and suddenly it got posted, and died?

    Is that how real pros feel about James Grosjean and his BC book? zg

  • apex

     

    I think we are making a false distinction here. Many are claiming that posting about this stuff will somehow alert casino staff and ruin opportunites. I would argue that it is very unlikely to happen that way. Plus, there are posts about this topic on the BC site. If this stuff shouldn’t be talked about publicly, why is it there?

    If this thread is going to continue and people truly believe mentioning holecarding along with this game is a terrible thing to do, we should at least edit the thread to make it more vague. Maybe it should be deleted. Each time the thread gets a new post we run the SLIGHT risk of tipping off a pit boss that this is possible, without the benefit to the community of explaining how to do this properly.

  • NightStalker

    Ideally, Delete this thread

    Quote: apex said:
    Maybe it should be deleted. Each time the thread gets a new post we run the SLIGHT risk of tipping off a pit boss that this is possible, without the benefit to the community of explaining how to do this properly.

    But From business perspective, these kind of threads helps in getting more hits, hype to the site. This is coming at the cost of regular APs’ income..
    I don’t see any other reason of making this thread sticky, assuming OP also want to delete the thread?

  • zengrifter

     

    Quote: NightStalker said:
    But From business perspective, these kind of threads helps in getting more hits, hype to the site. This is coming at the cost of regular APs’ income.. I don’t see any other reason of making this thread sticky, assuming OP also want to delete the thread?

    Nonsense. Tell the author to remove his website and Exhibit CAA discussion board. zg

  • moo321

     

    Quote: zengrifter said:
    Is that how real pros feel about James Grosjean and his BC book? zg

    A lot of people are mad at him for revealing certain things. Some carny games have gotten much harder to beat.

  • zengrifter

     

    Quote: moo321 said:
    A lot of people are mad at him for revealing certain things. Some carny games have gotten much harder to beat.

    Again – WHY did he do it!?!? Not for the money (he says).
    Maybe a bid for author immortality?

    WHY WHY WHY, Herr Grosjean? zg

  • moo321

     

    Quote: zengrifter said:
    Again – WHY did he do it!?!? Not for the money (he says).
    Maybe a bid for author immortality?

    WHY WHY WHY, Herr Grosjean? zg

    Most people regret posting sensitive info. Doyle Brunson regrets publishing Super system.

  • zengrifter

     

    Quote: moo321 said:
    Most people regret posting sensitive info. Doyle Brunson regrets publishing Super system.

    So, having regretted the first one, he published SuperSys II? zg

  • moo321

     

    Let me give an example. About 5-6 years ago, there were these online casino bonuses that were beatable. Huge +EV, lots to go around. There was a site, bonuswhores.com (still in existence for poker bonuses) which was a hub for info. Now, you had guys on the site who were legit players. They knew how to beat the bonuses, figured out the strategies, and then talked about it in public. They would even post info about the specific bonuses which were available.

    Everything was fine until the “gnomes” came along. These were guys who would sign up literally dozens or even hundreds of times with fake names. All of a sudden, the casinos, instead of losing to the maybe 1% of their players that were AP’s started having 10-50% of their players be AP’s. Even before UIGEA, a lot of the good bonuses were getting killed. At one point Golden Palace had a bonus worth several thousand dollars a month. Of course, it got killed by the gnomes.

    Maybe 10 of these “gnome” farms killed a lot of the good bonuses for everyone. What will happen to an opportunity for live casino play when some clown gets ahold of it? Like the idiots I saw in Vegas a few weeks ago blatantly running a wheelchair play. They had no signals, they were just speaking a foreign language about how to play their hands. Those idiots could easilly burn out a game that a smart player could have pulled thousands from.

    In fact, idiots could burn out that game at a whole network of casinos, like H a r r a h’s. Literally dozens of casinos could be lost just because of these idiots.

    On the other hand, I was a member of the inner circle at another bonus site, onlineblackjackguide. We talked about how to beat bonuses, specific bonuses, and even some advanced stuff that remains secret today. Because I knew it was a handful of trustworthy players, I was ok with talking about stuff, and so were the others. Loose lips sink ships.

  • Craps Master

     

    Quote: apex said:
    So my arguement is this: The word is out. The dammage is done. HC games are rare. But we might as well at least know how to play them correctly if we find one. So can we talk about this?

    That is a BS argument. Every piece of information about a sensitive advantage play opportunity that leaks out into the public costs the practitioners of that advantage play method some money, whether it is because a casino boss gets hip to it or because another player learns how to take advantage of it and turns into a competitor.

    The rest of this thread past the first post seems to be a lot of BS as well. Who is to say who deserves to know how to exploit a given casino weakness? Nobody, really. The people with the knowledge can try to preserve its secrecy by being quiet, or they can discuss it openly. It’s really entirely up to them, and questioning their motives is pointless. All that said, the site belongs to Ken Smith, and if he wants to prohibit certain types of discussion, that’s his prerogative. What transpires at other sites is irrelevant, and he doesn’t really have to justify his reasons to anyone.

    As it happens, I do not share Ken Smith’s ideals when it comes to the spread of information about advantage play, but I can respect his decision to keep some subjects under lock and key. I do not ascribe any particular virtue to being an established advantage player that entitles such a person to continued earnings or the right to expect that certain information about advantage play remain undisclosed. I think it is naive, if not foolish, to try to fight the flow of information in the information age. In short, if you have a question, I might just have an answer, provided I don’t suspect you’re a casino insider or regard you as a dbag. This is the kind of stuff PMs (or even email) are for, if it can’t be discussed openly.

    Anyhow, good luck at the tables.

  • apex

     

    Quote: Craps Master said:
    That is a BS argument. Every piece of information about a sensitive advantage play opportunity that leaks out into the public costs the practitioners of that advantage play method some money, whether it is because a casino boss gets hip to it or because another player learns how to take advantage of it and turns into a competitor.

    The rest of this thread past the first post seems to be a lot of BS as well. Who is to say who deserves to know how to exploit a given casino weakness? Nobody, really. The people with the knowledge can try to preserve its secrecy by being quiet, or they can discuss it openly. It’s really entirely up to them, and questioning their motives is pointless. All that said, the site belongs to Ken Smith, and if he wants to prohibit certain types of discussion, that’s his prerogative. What transpires at other sites is irrelevant, and he doesn’t really have to justify his reasons to anyone.

    As it happens, I do not share Ken Smith’s ideals when it comes to the spread of information about advantage play, but I can respect his decision to keep some subjects under lock and key. I do not ascribe any particular virtue to being an established advantage player that entitles such a person to continued earnings or the right to expect that certain information about advantage play remain undisclosed. I think it is naive, if not foolish, to try to fight the flow of information in the information age. In short, if you have a question, I might just have an answer, provided I don’t suspect you’re a casino insider or regard you as a dbag. This is the kind of stuff PMs (or even email) are for, if it can’t be discussed openly.

    Anyhow, good luck at the tables.

    I basically agree with you at this point in my career. I wanted people to share the info with me but realize now how valuable it is and see the value in not talking about it. I realize this does not reflect well on me. At the time It seemed odd to me that some things were allowed to be talked about and some things weren’t. I was thinking in black and white, like there should be a rule “All AP techniques should be talked about” or “No Advanced info will be discussed.” Like most things in life, each situation needs to be evaluated on it’s own. I think Ken, others made the right call.

  • zengrifter

     

    Quote: Craps Master said:
    That is a BS argument. Every piece of information about a sensitive advantage play opportunity that leaks out into the public costs the practitioners of that advantage play method some money, whether it is because a casino boss gets hip to it or because another player learns how to take advantage of it and turns into a competitor.

    Or some yahoo pro publishes ‘The Book’ and several copies are purchased by casino agents. zg

  • Craps Master

     

    Quote: zengrifter said:
    Or some yahoo pro publishes ‘The Book’ and several copies are purchased by casino agents. zg

    So what.

  • Craps Master

     

    Quote: apex said:
    I basically agree with you at this point in my career. I wanted people to share the info with me but realize now how valuable it is and see the value in not talking about it. I realize this does not reflect well on me. At the time It seemed odd to me that some things were allowed to be talked about and some things weren’t. I was thinking in black and white, like there should be a rule “All AP techniques should be talked about” or “No Advanced info will be discussed.” Like most things in life, each situation needs to be evaluated on it’s own. I think Ken, others made the right call.

    It seems, then, that you do not agree with me?

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