Count-bet Camouflage Gambits

#1
A quick review of some count-bet camouflage gambits along with a question - are any of them still
relevant (other than Wonging)? Another question: Are there any newer ones worth discussing? zg
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Grifter Gambit: ZGI, BJINFO, BJ Essays (Malmuth), Beyond Counting (Grosjean)
See ZGI and BJIFO threads

WONG GAMBIT: (ie 'Wonging')
See BJINFO threads

Schlessinger Gambit: BJ Attack
Increase bet ONLY after win, decrease bet ONLY after loss.

Sklansky Gambit: Sklansky Talks BJ
Bet big off the top in 1D and decrease only after loss EVEN IF the count tanks.

Reid Gambit: Dynamic BJ (Reid)
Mentally use two BR registers RANDOMLY - half the time you are betting to a 7k BR and half the time you are betting to a 14k BR

GeoC Gambit: (Similar to Sklansky Gambit)
Bet big off the top of 2D and decrease ONLY after loss EVEN IF count tanks.​
 
#2
The 'ART' of 1D PLAY...

The following communique between a well known counter (bbbb) and I in 2002 emphasized a combination of tactics that I have succesfully used for MANY hours of El Cortez 1D play (1999-2005) - the "xxxx casino" referred to in the communique IS the EC - I have previously stated that IF you can play green at EC you can play black anywhere.

This rundown mixes several gambits together.
This approach may or may not be still valid and would otherwise need tweaking for 2D. zg
-----------------
The 'ART' of 1D PLAY...

bbbb wrote:

Mr. Grifter Hows things been going. I keep wondering when Barfakel is gonna have another Ratpack dinner...but in the meantime I'm planning a trip to [LV] right now for early May and have never played at your xxxx hangout. If my usual max bet is $200 bucks what approach would you suggest that I use for playing that game (or is that too rich for playing there a first time?)

ZG replies:

You CAN pull it off, and its a good test for anyone's act-strategy. Here's some suggestions -

1. Days and grave have the best pene, whereas swing is crowded and shorter pen regardless. Start with early day shift - arrive near the end of grave looking grubby and 'up all nite.' Start small with greens 1-4 posi-progresion (non-count-related) with an occasional 100 bill 'money plays' (count-related) - order drinks, Malibu rocks is good because it looks hard but it isn't.

2. 15-30 minutes of progression play as the shift changes will get you into position - move tables a couple of times, demonstrating that you want to be left alone -

3. (Grifter's Gambit) Heads up'' compulsively' throw out 3 hands of $50 off the top, if the count tanks south bet the 3x $50 again and again oblivious to the neg-count. If the count goes posi, bet 1x $125, win bet $150, etc., lose bet $200 'steaming.'

4. (Sklanksy's Gambit) Bet $150 off the top, win bet $150 again (and again), regardless if count tanks, or goes up $200 and again, etc. Lose and count tanks bet $25, win bet $50, then $75, etc.

5. (Opposition Gambit) Bet $75 off the top and count soars bet $100, count tumbles (but still posi) bet $200.

6. Ask for a $25 min game (you may or may not be granted) - Alternate between 3-4-5 above. (3 is strongest)

7. IMPORTANT - Make some incorrect plays - mostly stand on A7 v T/A, stand 16v T in neg count, split TTv 7 (neg count, small bet), etc.

8. IMPORTANT - Place an occasional $25 RMatch bet - xxxx has the better 3-10 payoff so you wont lose much by it - and if the 1st round or two passes without a particular suit showing up the RM is probably a posi-expectation.

9. You will feel that the PCs are sweating the action at first - they are NOT (they are sweating the dealers) - they watch the dealers very carefully because they are mostly break-ins - if the dealer makes an error that hurts you, pretend not to notice until the PC fixes it, then thank the PC. On days the main boss is wwww (bald, very sharp and likable), #2 guy is cccc. Once you're in with wwww on days you are in on grave too.

10. Lastly, when you are down to your last round or two you can "force" the shuffle by spreading again to 3hands.

Have fun with this and you can get a pretty wide spread with 66%-85% pene. xxxx typically gives the boot to $5 counters within 15 min, whereas you can play as described above for hours (best to limit your play to 2 hr with a meal break in the middle). Return in 24-48 hours on mid-grave and repeat performance ending shortly AFTER shift change into days. Use sparingly.

I will be in in early May as well, let me know dates and maybe we can hook up.

Regards, zg​
 
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Southpaw

Well-Known Member
#3
Thank you for this, Zg. It has been an interesting read, and it relates to something that I've been working on for some time now.

SP
 

bjcardcounter

Well-Known Member
#4
Southpaw said:
Thank you for this, Zg. It has been an interesting read, and it relates to something that I've been working on for some time now.

SP
How many units per hour do we keep aside for the camo - Considering 30 hands an hour.
 
#5
bjcardcounter said:
How many units per hour do we keep aside for the camo - Considering 30 hands an hour.
There is no 'extra set-aside' for betting camouflage, it just decreases EV and increases variance... BUT these
were borne of a different era of mostly 1-2D. Smaller stakes 6-8D require much less (if any) camouflage, hence
the question: Are any of these still valid? zg
 

Baberuth

Well-Known Member
#6
Thanks ZG

ZG,

I may not be the only one who has satyed away from EC because of negative feed back and noted heat, but I will be there my next visit and take my chances. I will be a good student and have fun for sure. I owe you the report after.
Thank you for the lesson.
Babe
 
#7
Baberuth said:
I may not be the only one who has satyed away from EC because of negative feed back and noted heat, but I will be there my next visit and take my chances. I will be a good student and have fun for sure. I owe you the report after. Thank you for the lesson.
Is the Western still dealing a playable game? I would go there too. zg
 
#8
zengrifter said:
A quick review of some count-bet camouflage gambits along with a question - are any of them still
relevant (other than Wonging)? Another question: Are there any newer ones worth discussing? zg
Yes, the Monkey Gambit!

Play two progressions. In positive counts, double your bet after a win and leave it as it was after a loss or push.

In negative counts, double your bet after a win and drop down to minimum after a loss.

You tune the spread by changing how many units you start off the deck with, and by adjusting the threshold points that you consider a positive or negative count.

This system has a lot of nice features. I was using it for the same win rate as a 1-5 spread, on a game that you only need 1-3 to beat. Another benefit is that you raise your bet in negative counts only after you have been lucky, thus reducing the potential for negative swings. Knowing what not to double or split in those negative counts helps a lot too.

I damn near bankrupted a SD game in Jackpot and another one in Sparks using this kind of betting, and all they saw was this guy playing progressions.
 

Canceler

Well-Known Member
#9
I have to say I really like the concept behind the Reid Gambit, which seems like it would induce a serious headache in anyone trying to correlate your bet size to the count. :devil:
 
#10
Canceler said:
I have to say I really like the concept behind the Reid Gambit, which seems like it would induce a serious headache in anyone trying to correlate your bet size to the count. :devil:
Reid suggests randomizing the two bet-tiers by following the dealers last hit -
black card = 7k BR, red card = 14k BR. I would use odd-even - harder to spot.

I actually came up with a similar 3-tier scheme during my first 6-mos as a
counter, circa 1974. Spent 20-min trying to explain it to my mother! zg
 

nc-tom

Well-Known Member
#11
Touche

ZG very good post. This info is still relevent for play in NN. Thanks for the info,I have used one of these to good success and will see about including the others,thanks.
 
#12
Automatic Monkey said:
Yes, the Monkey Gambit!

Play two progressions. In positive counts, double your bet after a win and leave it as it was after a loss or push.

In negative counts, double your bet after a win and drop down to minimum after a loss.

You tune the spread by changing how many units you start off the deck with, and by adjusting the threshold points that you consider a positive or negative count.

This system has a lot of nice features. I was using it for the same win rate as a 1-5 spread, on a game that you only need 1-3 to beat. Another benefit is that you raise your bet in negative counts only after you have been lucky, thus reducing the potential for negative swings. Knowing what not to double or split in those negative counts helps a lot too.

I damn near bankrupted a SD game in Jackpot and another one in Sparks using this kind of betting, and all they saw was this guy playing progressions.
Excellent. zg

Ps - Stay the hell away from my truck-stop!!
 
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psyduck

Well-Known Member
#13
Automatic Monkey said:
Yes, the Monkey Gambit!

Play two progressions. In positive counts, double your bet after a win and leave it as it was after a loss or push.

In negative counts, double your bet after a win and drop down to minimum after a loss.

You tune the spread by changing how many units you start off the deck with, and by adjusting the threshold points that you consider a positive or negative count.

This system has a lot of nice features. I was using it for the same win rate as a 1-5 spread, on a game that you only need 1-3 to beat. Another benefit is that you raise your bet in negative counts only after you have been lucky, thus reducing the potential for negative swings. Knowing what not to double or split in those negative counts helps a lot too.

I damn near bankrupted a SD game in Jackpot and another one in Sparks using this kind of betting, and all they saw was this guy playing progressions.
Very practical, Monkey! No wonder Katweezel posted a picture for you (http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=20592).
 
#15
zengrifter said:
Excellent. zg

Ps - Stay the hell away from my truck-stop!!
I lasted only a few shuffles at their sister property at Crystal Lake. Split 10's, and the phone rang before the hand ended.

How do you feel about using a progression at craps to get oneself labeled as a progressionist, before going to a good BJ table and using a huge spread that resembles a progression?
 
#16
Automatic Monkey said:
How do you feel about using a progression at craps to get oneself labeled as a progressionist, before going to a good BJ table and using a huge spread that resembles a progression?
I don't think they'd even take note of your craps progression.
Better to bet BIG at craps and have one or more confederates off-setting your do-bets with don't bets. zg
 

moo321

Well-Known Member
#17
zengrifter said:
Are any of these still valid? zg
Yes. However, I think if you're going to use camo, you need to be making it up someplace else. Bigger spread, wongouts, tracking, SOMETHING.

For goodness sake, don't go laying down camo on your 1-10 spread on an 8 decker.
 

Blue Efficacy

Well-Known Member
#18
zengrifter said:
I don't think they'd even take note of your craps progression.
Better to bet BIG at craps and have one or more confederates off-setting your do-bets with don't bets. zg
Wouldn't it be better to have the big bettor doing the don't? I have rarely seen more than one wrong bettor at a craps table.
 
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