Opinions Required on AP Move

HarryKuntz

HarryKuntz

Well-Known Member
#1
#1
Last night I thought I made a good AP move but am now worried about the heat it may have generated. I'm not the best CC in the world but am very good at spotting weakness in play. Last night I found a weak dealer who's biggest weakness was assumptions on play.

On this particular hand, there was a TC of +5 (using Hi/Lo) and I bet 4 units. I was dealt 77 against the dealers 6. I spilt my 7's and was dealt 74 and 7A. There was 1 other guy playing at third base on hard 19, so I knew I could make a move. I picked my drink up and raised it to my lips whilst saying double (on 74) and started drinking. I was dealt a 6 (for 17). As I intended, the dealer skipped my soft 18 whilst i was drinking as well as the other players hard 19 and pulled his next card which was a 4 (this is a ENHC game by the way). As he started to pull his second card. I shouted stop, just slighty to late to avoid see the next card laugh: this was a ten and gave the dealer 20. I immediately said "I wanted another card another card on my soft 18". The pit boss was called over and placed the 4 on my soft 18 and the 10 to the dealer, making him to draw again on 16. The following card was another 10 to bust the dealer. Anyway, I basically made 24 units on that stunt from the 12 I should have lost and the 12 I won.

To be fair I had made 80 units on this session but I had to leave slightly after because I sensed quite a bit of heat coming from the pit. I have been making quite a bit out of the casino but am now worried I've killed the golden goose.

My concern now, is should I avoid this casino for a while or just carry on as normal?
 
HarryKuntz

HarryKuntz

Well-Known Member
#3
#3
cardcounter0 said:
Are you using some strange definition of unit?
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The question is about heat, I'm paranoid I'm not giving info on my betting ramp, when I wong in, unit size etc. I'm not provided you with enough info to make any educated opinions of my style of play, so can we stick to the subject.
 
R

rukus

Well-Known Member
#6
#6
if he is wonging in, then who knows, maybe 4 "units" may be fine according to his optimal ramp. like he said, he purposely hasnt given us enough info on the game to determine that. and i promise, if your unit was 500, then 4 of those bad boys would indeed bring natural "heat"/curiosity just from the $ size.

as for the OP, i would avoid just about most moves that would require calling the pit over when my bet was significant (which it would be at +5). especially if it would require them to pull the tape and review the round. why point out to them the size of your bet or give them any reason to review your play? what if they see you betting a fraction of that later on - they might grow suspicious if they were not already. might have made/saved you money this time, but who knows if it would work the next time. if you really were sensing some real heat after this move, then stay away for a while, play on another shift, or just show up on that same shift flat betting (though this last option costs you money unless you exclusively wong in/out). that's my personal take on it.
 
jimbiggs

jimbiggs

Well-Known Member
#8
#8
HarryKuntz said:
Last night I thought I made a good AP move but am now worried about the heat it may have generated. I'm not the best CC in the world but am very good at spotting weakness in play. Last night I found a weak dealer who's biggest weakness was assumptions on play.

On this particular hand, there was a TC of +5 (using Hi/Lo) and I bet 4 units. I was dealt 77 against the dealers 6. I spilt my 7's and was dealt 74 and 7A. There was 1 other guy playing at third base on hard 19, so I knew I could make a move. I picked my drink up and raised it to my lips whilst saying double (on 74) and started drinking. I was dealt a 6 (for 17). As I intended, the dealer skipped my soft 18 whilst i was drinking as well as the other players hard 19 and pulled his next card which was a 4 (this is a ENHC game by the way). As he started to pull his second card. I shouted stop, just slighty to late to avoid see the next card laugh: this was a ten and gave the dealer 20. I immediately said "I wanted another card another card on my soft 18". The pit boss was called over and placed the 4 on my soft 18 and the 10 to the dealer, making him to draw again on 16. The following card was another 10 to bust the dealer. Anyway, I basically made 24 units on that stunt from the 12 I should have lost and the 12 I won.

To be fair I had made 80 units on this session but I had to leave slightly after because I sensed quite a bit of heat coming from the pit. I have been making quite a bit out of the casino but am now worried I've killed the golden goose.

My concern now, is should I avoid this casino for a while or just carry on as normal?
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I had a similar situation once. Dealer wasn't waiting for my insurance bets before checking hole card. I had a max bet out in a high count. Dealer is showing an ace. I reached for chips, had them in my hand, but before I could place them, dealer checked hole card and flipped over a blackjack. Got pit involved, dealer hadn't followed procedure, they allowed me to place my insurance bet and then paid it. Phone calls were made, a shift supervisor came down and picked up the discards and started to check the count. (I guess it didn't help that I was insuring a seven.) I picked up my chips and left. Like you, I felt like my actions had brought me too much attention and I worried about getting the boot on my next visit. This was a large place and apparently I've been forgiven or forgotten.

In your case, I would avoid that pit dude for a while by playing other shifts, or other casinos. He may remember you and decide to keep an eye on you because one time you did something suspicious.

In my opinion, it would be better to avoid situations where you have to get the pit involved. Not only because they don't always do the right thing, but because you want to be in and out before they start paying attention to your play. The less attention you get, the better off you are. Just my opinion. Your milage may vary.
 
HarryKuntz

HarryKuntz

Well-Known Member
#9
#9
thanks chaps

There was no option to double the soft 18 or I would have and my 4 units was properly the biggest bet in this casino at the time.

Thanks for the comments guys, I'll properly avoid this pit for a while, the biggest problem I have is choice of game, the casino's are small and few and far between and this is by far the best game locally. I guess the decision I have to make is how long to wait. I can't imagine it will be too long before they tighten up their many weaknesses so I risk missing out on these opertunities or going back too early and risking a barring. Going in on another shift is not an option as different personnel's shifts overlap each other and its very hard to predict who's working when. :flame:
 
sagefr0g

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#10
#10
HarryKuntz said:
There was no option to double the soft 18 or I would have and my 4 units was properly the biggest bet in this casino at the time.

Thanks for the comments guys, I'll properly avoid this pit for a while, the biggest problem I have is choice of game, the casino's are small and few and far between and this is by far the best game locally. I guess the decision I have to make is how long to wait. I can't imagine it will be too long before they tighten up their many weaknesses so I risk missing out on these opertunities or going back too early and risking a barring. Going in on another shift is not an option as different personnel's shifts overlap each other and its very hard to predict who's working when. :flame:
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i'd go back right away and let that pit critter see you. but just play basic strategy and mainly flat bet and maybe make a few small raised bets what ever. and not stay long. wean the guy off you a bit is the idea lol.
 
HarryKuntz

HarryKuntz

Well-Known Member
#11
#11
sagefr0g said:
i'd go back right away and let that pit critter see you. but just play basic strategy and mainly flat bet and maybe make a few small raised bets what ever. and not stay long. wean the guy off you a bit is the idea lol.
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I've thought about this Mr Fr0g but on previous occassions when I've tried to do this for cover my instincts take over and all I can think about is "get the money". I find it really hard to flat bet when I know I have an advantage.:whip:
 
sagefr0g

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#12
#12
HarryKuntz said:
I've thought about this Mr Fr0g but on previous occassions when I've tried to do this for cover my instincts take over and all I can think about is "get the money". I find it really hard to flat bet when I know I have an advantage.:whip:
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bring some hot chick in there with you and play some slots of something and just a little blackjack flat bet lol.
reign it in man. steady. :laugh:
 
blackjack avenger

blackjack avenger

Well-Known Member
#14
#14
Gone but Not Forgotten?!

If not playing rated disappearing for awhile may be enough. However, if you play rated and they tagged your account for watching it does not matter how long you stay away. It may be time to forget playing rated in that casino.
 
K

Kasi

Well-Known Member
#15
#15
HarryKuntz said:
There was no option to double the soft 18 or I would have
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I'm probably missing something here - you can't double A,7 vs 6, I assume by rule?, have a max bet out, and beg the dealer, who correctly originally assumed the correct BS play when he passed you up without a hand signal, beg mngmt too, to please, please turn my 18 into a 12?

I think you gained playing time there lol.
 
HarryKuntz

HarryKuntz

Well-Known Member
#16
#16
blackjack avenger said:
If not playing rated disappearing for awhile may be enough. However, if you play rated and they tagged your account for watching it does not matter how long you stay away. It may be time to forget playing rated in that casino.
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I'm not sure how rating works or if even applicable, as I play in the UK - does anybody know?

Kasi said:
I'm probably missing something here - you can't double A,7 vs 6, I assume by rule?, have a max bet out, and beg the dealer, who correctly originally assumed the correct BS play when he passed you up without a hand signal, beg mngmt too, to please, please turn my 18 into a 12?

I think you gained playing time there lol.
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The rules were are double 10 & 11 only. The point is though I was taking the 4 away from the dealer. I had seen the next card too, which would have put the dealer on a 20. By taking the 4 away, I put the dealer on a 16 in a +TC. Usually if the dealer makes an error, forgets to deal to a spot, etc. then they just place the cards back to where they should have been dealt to. I just said to the dealer "stop, I wanted another card", I didn't expect him to call the pit boss over. The dealer was so dumb he properly doesn't even know what BS is. Also, he was the one to say he had made an error, I didn't have to say anything to the pit boss. It wasn't until later that I sensed heat, I suppose that may have been because the float was well down by then too - lol.

Hopefully they do just think I'm an idiot.
 
Mimosine

Mimosine

Well-Known Member
#18
#18
callipygian said:
What's the legality of this move?
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if you do not clearly indicate with a hand signal hit/stand/(surrender) that can be observed by the sky, and the dealer passes you by to deal your card to someone else, then many casinos will allow you to take that card. It is very clear that there is a protocol that the house has to follow for BJ. Hence new players are always being chastised to give a clear hand signal. Now with a hard 18,19,20 it is not that logical that you would ever take a hit, doing so might be viewed highly suspect if you see that the next card is a A,2,3. But With soft hands in particular some dealers take too many liberties. On at least 2 occasions, i was not able to DD on my A8 v. 6. as I watched the next card come out I quickly decided I did not want it. I have on one or two occasions had to insist that a dealer give me a card on my soft 17 or 18 after having seen it. The pit was ALWAYS involved.

If you use this technique, use it sparingly. you will only get away with it once for a given dealer on a given day. The pit usually doesn't mind doing this once, if you aren't a complete ass. but doing it more than once is asking for trouble.

is it illegal. of course not. the dealer not waiting for your hand signal is probably a worse violation of gaming law. but hell - I'm not lawyer!
 
C

callipygian

Well-Known Member
#19
#19
Mimosine said:
there is a protocol that the house has to follow for BJ
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... that's exactly my point. The law as well as the house protocol may be different than what they allow you to get away with.

For instance, you can put out a bet immediately after getting a BJ and hope the dealer pays you if the dealer busts. I'm pretty sure the casino has the legal authority to grab their money back if they so choose; they may or may not actually do so.

In the case of intentionally trying to get a card you've already seen, it's unlikely that the pit would eventually take a draconian stance and invoke the law (since it'd be a bad business practice), but my question is whether they could if for whatever reason they wanted to.

This is not a purely academic question. If you are breaking an actual law (even if you get away with it 99% of the time), or even if the casino SUSPECTS you are breaking the law, the casino has the right to backroom you and/or confiscate your chips, which they cannot do if you're squeaky clean.

If you're about to be backed off, and the floor manager catches you trying to hit an 18 that you ambiguously stood on, it might just give them the excuse to upgrade your punishment.
 
HarryKuntz

HarryKuntz

Well-Known Member
#20
#20
callipygian said:
... that's exactly my point. The law as well as the house protocol may be different than what they allow you to get away with.

For instance, you can put out a bet immediately after getting a BJ and hope the dealer pays you if the dealer busts. I'm pretty sure the casino has the legal authority to grab their money back if they so choose; they may or may not actually do so.

In the case of intentionally trying to get a card you've already seen, it's unlikely that the pit would eventually take a draconian stance and invoke the law (since it'd be a bad business practice), but my question is whether they could if for whatever reason they wanted to.

This is not a purely academic question. If you are breaking an actual law (even if you get away with it 99% of the time), or even if the casino SUSPECTS you are breaking the law, the casino has the right to backroom you and/or confiscate your chips, which they cannot do if you're squeaky clean.

If you're about to be backed off, and the floor manager catches you trying to hit an 18 that you ambiguously stood on, it might just give them the excuse to upgrade your punishment.
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I can't see how any law is being broken, your purely taking advantage of a casino error. The casino takes advantage of my error when I hit a stiff and bust, so fairs fair! :laugh:

In actual fact, its the casino that is breaking the rules by not giving the option to hit, stand, etc? What if they did this when you had hard 10 or 11? Do you still think it would be wrong to correct them, regardless of whether the next card has been seen or not? :eek:

Or how about we just let them play our game for us? You wouldn't need to visit the casino anymore, you could wire the money and they could let you know if you won or not? This is just as ridiculous as saying a law has been broken by the player. :whip:

If any law is being broken, its by the casino not the player. :flame:
 
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