Friendly dealer was totally on to me...

So mid last week I lost $1100 in about 5 hours at a local indian casino spreading 1x5 - 2x50 on 6 decks :flame:. Saturday I decide to work "overtime" and try to recover my losses. I hit up the same casino on a different shift mid-morning and make $400 in 3 hours, seeing none of the same people except for the former pit boss dealing at a $25 table in a different pit. I had already made plans to meet my BS playing friend Mike and his GF at a different nearby casino that night, as his GF had a work party being hosted there. I had taken a few weeks off from that particular casino because I played there quite a bit over the winter break, and I was afraid that I might have overstayed my welcome...

After a few hours break I meet my friend at the second casino and we part ways at first. I hit the tables, playing unrated (although I do have a card) and find that none of the dealers seem to recognize me. Before I knew it I had lost my $400 + some at the Blackjack tables, but made it back before my friend returned from his party. After he gets back we sit at the same table for about an hour and I'm counting while he's "following my lead" (betting) without being too obvious, and asking me for advice on occasion. At one point in a positive count, Mike has 9 vs a dealer 3, hesitates and says "Not sure what to do here..." I say "Oh yeah, double down!" He does and gets a 2... Dealer pulls a 17 and everyone at the table wins except for him. I said "Mike I can't believe you doubled a 9 vs. a 3... God, you're stupid!" :laugh: Everyone else at the table laughed too. Anyway, I didn't make much money, but Mike's up $500 before we break and go back to the party for free drinks and and a small buffet. I eat and have a drink but soon left Mike back at the party so I can get some more action at the tables.

It was during this time that I started getting quite a few negative or otherwise uneventfull shoes, and I met the nice dealer... He was about my age, maybe younger, and he came in at the end of a negative shoe. The next shoe is slightly negative to neutral and the new dealer was pulling an abnormal amount of ridiculous 21's out of his butt. We start joking about how horrible the shoe was which had taken $125 from me $5 at a time. About halfway through the next shoe which was also uneventfull, the dealer pauses his dealing and asks me...
"Let me ask you, I'm just curious... Are you practicing counting cards or something?" I was completely blown away... The count had gone nowhere, and I hadn't placed more than a $20 dollar bet that he'd seen up to this point... I wondered if I was making any newbie mistakes like moving my lips or nodding as the cards are dealt, glancing at the discard tray too much, or doing the "windmill" motion with my head. Honestly bewildered, I say "No... Why?... What would make you think that?". He says "Well I've noticed that you've mostly been betting $5, and the count is not really doing anything, but every once in a while you bet $10 or $15, and it just seems to be at the right times." I said "Oh, so you are counting..?" (I almost added "too?"). He said yes, and for the rest of the rest of the shoe he started talking about how being successful at counting was really hard, and how you have to wait all day for a "killer shoe" and have a huge bank to withstand the fluctuations. He told me about his counter friend who finally got a shoe that reached a TC of almost 30, only to have the dealer get blackjack for the rest of the shoe. I really, really wanted to chime in and share some of my stories (Like how a dealer got 6 ten-up blackjacks against me in a row when I had my max bet out at the same place his friend was playing), but I didn't... Even though I'm sure it was safe to tell him. Anyway, he mentioned that dealers don't really like counters, but not because they have the edge. "We really don't care, it's not our money" he said. "Oh, what is it then? Is it because they don't tip?" I asked. "Not tipping, sure, alot of people don't tip... But really it's because they never come to have any fun... They never talk or joke around, if they interact with the other players, it's usually an argument... But the worst is God forbid I make a mistake, they're gonna complain, call the pit over and raise a huge stink about it!" It's now the last hand of the shoe, and I bet 2x20 and win both. "What was the count on that last hand?" I ask. "I dunno, I lost interest" he said. I wanted to tell him it was +2... Instead I play a $2.50 chip for him and I lose. Soon after, the dealer's change, and he left so quickly, I had to chase him down to hand him a red chip. "Oh!" he said, "Like I deserve it!" At that point, I wished I had handed him a green one.

Anyway, to finish the story, I ended up making $1000 for the day and learned alot... If I were smarter I would have gotten the dealer's number or something, and maybe fill him in on my stories over a few beers... Maybe then I can find out if there are any "messages" that might display on the computer screens at the tables when I hand them my player's card (I had a bad dream about this).

And Mike:whip:, by the way, made $700... I should be happy that this was one of the FEW instances that that lucky bastard didn't make more than me (with or without my help).

Couple of things:

1. Be careful. You don't know where that dealer's loyalties lie.

That said, 2. Do you know that dealer's name? Did s/he give good pen and deal quickly?

3. What do his/her comments about why "dealers don't like counters" tell you about how you should act at the tables?

The poster said the dealer is he. It seems either are interested in each other. They should hook up that night.

oh yea. degenerate low life gamblers are ALWAYS in a good mood. scumbag addicts always joke around and NEVER argue with other players. superstitious ploppies NEVER complain and call the pit.

oh yea, I totally agree, counters are the worst in that bunch.

Well, no I don't know the dealer's name or anything but I also don't attempt to learn or remember any dealer's names. I think I'm pretty good at reading people though, and he seemed to have a real respect for counters.

The funny thing is, he really didn't give good pen... About 1.5 decks were cut off of 6, which is just slightly worse than the average for that place. Then again, I told him that I wasn't counting, and I think I was pretty convincing. The fact that I was genuinely confused probably assisted my believability.

Also, I try to have fun and talk at the tables... That was kinda the moral of this story.

dog tossed

You are making a big mistake by befriending any dealer. When you get the tap remember you did it to yourself. Never let your gaurd down and think anyone sympathizes with you or gives a rat's arse about you either. Next time you go back he may have been elevateed to the floor and he will be the pit critter smiling at you.

Dealer

The dealer was a phony, stringing you along, you fell for it,,,better check your game, you are giving out signals.

CP

Stereotypes

I'll admit that I'm green... I have about 6 months experience as a real card counter.

I'm not saying I agree with his stereotypes of a card counter... In fact for the GOOD AP's that regularly post on this forum, they're mostly untrue. In the same sence though, could our stereotypes about dealers be untrue for some of them? Are they all evil, heartless non-humans?

I don't think I have much to lose by telling him... If he knows for sure and doesn't approve, I have to avoid him. Otherwise... I'll have to avoid him, or make -EV plays to throw him off. If he suspects I'm counting just from seeing a few bets of $10 and $15, what's he gonna think when I throw out bets of 2x$50? Also I think it might be good to know someone on the inside especially if he were to become a PC (if we were truely friends by this point, that is).

Is there anybody out there that thinks this could be a +EV move? No one out there is sleeping with the enemy?

You won't gain anything by befriending a dealer, and worse, if you actually like this dealer, you could cost them their job. There are plenty of stories of players befriending and even dating dealers that were later fired when it was discovered that they were in the company of unwelcome players. A dealer has very little to offer you in the way of information, especially if you're betting such low limits. You certainly don't need to worry about cover or what might pop up on a computer screen somewhere—unless you're playing at a ridiculously sweaty place, you need to be playing 100% by the book, with no cover and no mistakes.

Now, I do think that you did learn a great lesson from all of this, and that's the concept of being friendly and likeable at the tables. Dealers generally don't like dealing with unpleasant or cold personalities; floorpersons and pit bosses don't either. If you're well-liked by the staff and someone may suspect you of counting, it will likely be their first response to find reasons that you're not suspect rather than finding reasons confirming their suspicions. This won't get you very far, but it might buy you a few more sessions, and maybe a polite backoff rather than a nasty one.

I've also found that keeping the pit and dealers engaged in lively and friendly dialogue goes a long way (at some places) to disguise large bet spreads, aggressive play, and other obvious signs of counting. It's not a cure-all, but the last thing most pits expect is a talkative, charismatic, likeable card counter.

C. P. is almost certainly correct.

I thought about this after my last post and you are right... I personally don't have much to lose by exposing myself... Even though this is my only means of income right now, I am part time and also attending school, and I graduate in May with an Engineering degree... However, I don't want to caust someone else their job, especially someone I like.

Well, it seems I forgot the first rule of count club: Don't talk about count club... At least he doesn't know anything yet or have any of my info, so at least I'm safe here until May or until I screw up again... I'm glad I posted this.

burning bridges!

If you plan on leaving town after you graduate great, go for it. If you are local and plan on playing around the area in the future knock it off now.

yeah, until you start talking in your sleep :laugh::whip:

Holy %$#@ing COW!


Well, I hate to admit it... But you guys were right!

Guess who I saw wearing a suit last night?

He must have been brought straight in as a PC, because it's too soon for him to have been "elevated" to the floor, and I'd never seen him before that night.

Damn! That was a close one, and I am truely, truely shamed :whip: Luckily though, he didn't even reconize me.

A lot of places have dealers working as "dual rates," meaning that they alternate between dealing and working in the pit.

I thought that too. Now I'm not allowed to live within 1000 feet of a school, amusement park, or day care center. It's a bad deal man, don't do it.

He's just a dual rate... It's no big deal

I wouldn't even worry about avoiding him or avoiding his pit when he's a floorperson. There's a good chance he doesn't really care. you're just another player to him, as long as you don't hang around all shift and win enough to cause them problems.

Farmdog

Aw shucks, don't feel bad, we all have made mistakes, maybe more than our share.

That dual rate, he will climb up your back to get the position he wants, so stay clear.

Dumbest state,,,gotta be Wisc?:laugh:

CP

Actually I doubt he's trying to **** the OP.

If he was he wouldn't discuss it with him, he'd alert the shift manager about him when he went on break.

Pit

Do Ya think......................

CP