A few questions from a novice

J

jmp

Active Member
#1
#1
Hello, i actually visited this website almost half a year ago for the first time, and bought 2 books to get starting, i learned basic strategy and KO-Rookie, and actually learned it pretty well, but i had to quit due to school, i just didnt have the time to learn counting propperly, and not at all enough time to go to casinos to play.

Well, im back, no school, now im just working, so i have started all over, and im almost as far as i was when i stopped back then. Anyways,

i like to read these forums, i have learned ALOT from just reading threads, but there are alot of abbreviations, and i hope that some of you can tell me what they mean:

Wong/wonging
ROR
EV
AP

Thanks, Jmp.
 
M

Monkey!Boy

Active Member
#2
#2
Definitions for You

Welcome, and best of luck with counting!

Wonging: Entering or leaving a table based on the count. Named after BJ legend Stanford Wong. Wonging lets the player minimize (or completely eliminate) the amount of play in negative shoes, but can be bad for cover and difficult in crowded conditions.

ROR: Risk of ruin-- the likelyhood of losing all of your money. This can be fairly big, even if you are playing a good game.

EV: Expected value-- the amount of money you'll win, on average. Another important concept is standard deviation (SD), which indicates how far away from the EV you're likely to be. SD is much bigger than EV in blackjack, and is used to calculate your ROR.

AP: Advantage player. That's us. We play casino games at an advantage. The opposite of AP is ploppy. They're the ones who plop their money into the circle and then blame because they doubled down on seven and lost. They pay our bills.
 
J

jmp

Active Member
#4
#4
Hello again :)

I dont feel the need to spam the forums by making one more thread, so heres a question more, yet another rookie one hehe.

I have gotten down the basic strategy, and im only making mistakes very very rarely, and i have learned the K-O rookie strategy, and implemented the insurance play for when the RC = and > +3. Im playing about 500 hands per day(i know this is absolutely nothing compared to you guys who play it for a living), but its a nice 1½-2 hours of play for me, per day, which i think is a fair amount, anyways, blabla, enough about my newbie ablilities!

My question:

I have moved onto the K-O preferred strategy, and i find it fairly easy to use, exept i dont quite understand 1 part. In basic strategy, you are supposed to hit a hard 12v2 and hard 12v3. I guess this is because 12 is a fairly low hand, and you have a great chance of getting a high hand with just 1 more card, and the dealer has a great chance of busting, because he will need 2 more cards no matter what, you get the point, if the point is right ofc.

But, in the preferred strategy, you are supposed to stand if the RC is lower than +4, otherwise hit. So this means that you have to stand if the RC is for example 0, or -3 or +2, but not +5, then your supposed to hit. But my experience(yes i know), tells me that i get more hands that are below +4, overall(which would make sense, since you start your count at the IRC(-4) and work your way to the final count(+4), so you would experience more hands below the final count), than hands that are over, so knowing about the preferred strategy now, i dont understand why the basic strategy was build like this, when it, if you understand me, would have been more profitable to just stand on them both, untill you hit a RC of +4. I know this might sound really really confusing, im not sure if i understand it myself if i read it, but i hope you do. Please tell me if i misunderstood something!

Jmp.
 
R

RJT

Well-Known Member
#5
#5
JMP,
You've made a small but understandable mistake. You stand if the RC is greater than or equal to +4. If you think it through, when the count is +4 or above, then there are more high cards in the deck. This means that if you hit your 12, you are more likely to draw a 10 and bust your hand.
So you should hit 12 if the count is less than +4 and stand 12 vs 2 or 3 when the count is greater than +4.

RJT.
 
Sonny

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#6
#6
jmp said:
Hello again :)
Click to expand...
Howdy! :D

jmp said:
In basic strategy, you are supposed to hit a hard 12v2 and hard 12v3...But, in the preferred strategy, you are supposed to stand if the RC is lower than +4, otherwise hit.
Click to expand...
I think you have that backwards. You should hit when the RC is low because you are more likely to get a small card. When the RC is high (+4 or above in this case) you should stand because you are more likely to bust with a ten if you hit.

-Sonny-
 
J

jmp

Active Member
#7
#7
You guys are absolutely right, i had it turned around in my head! :eek:

It makes alot more sense now that you have explained it to me! Thanks, i wont ever fail on these hands anymore, i promise!

Jmp.
 
D

dacium

Well-Known Member
#8
#8
Sounds like you are head of most of the people here already.

I doupt there is anyone here that actually card counts full time or even everyday for 2 hours.
 
J

jmp

Active Member
#9
#9
Here we go again:

I have moved on and read a bit about the modified proportional betting, which seems fairly simple, exept if you play a 6 deck game, or even 8 deck game, but it doesnt seem that complicated. I also read about the RoR, and i have a question about it. How risky do you guys play? Using a 200 units bankroll gives a 75% chance of doubling your bankroll, 500 units equals 95% and 1000 units equals 99,5%. I know the amount of time it takes, rises dramaticly, as you increase the amount of units, so, how risky are you guys, what do you suggest? I guess 200 units is faaaar too risky, but what do you guys use?

I know the numbers i presented varies. Those numbers were under the following circumstances: 2 decks, 1-5 spread, using K-O preferred.

Jmp.
 
Sonny

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#10
#10
I generally keep a ROR of 2-5%. That means about a 600-800 unit bankroll for me. It all depends on what your EV and SD are.

-Sonny-
 
J

jmp

Active Member
#11
#11
Okay. I know i got the explenation on what EV and SD are, though i still dont know how to calculate it, and alothugh it surprised me, the K-O book doesnt mention any of these terms :(

Jmp.
 
Sonny

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#13
#13
EasyRhino said:
Sonny, how replenishable is your bankroll?
Click to expand...
It is replenishable, but not immediately. If I lost it all it would take a year or so to rebuild it fully. If I noticed that my bankroll was starting to slip away I would definitely adjust my bets (or playing strategy) to preserve an acceptable ROR. If it continued to slip then I might take a break until I could build it back enough to make a decent EV.

-Sonny-
 
2

21forme

Well-Known Member
#14
#14
Sonny said:
I generally keep a ROR of 2-5%. That means about a 600-800 unit bankroll for me. It all depends on what your EV and SD are.

-Sonny-
Click to expand...
Suupose you have a bad run and lose half of your BR in a few hours. Do you have the conviction to continue, or do you become gun-shy and take a break?
 
Sonny

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#15
#15
21forme said:
Suupose you have a bad run and lose half of your BR in a few hours. Do you have the conviction to continue, or do you become gun-shy and take a break?
Click to expand...
Lose 300-400 units in a few hours?! I would definitely take a break and find out what the heck I am doing wrong! :)

But seriously, this question is more about psychological strength. Mathematically you should continue as long as the conditions are still favorable. In reality, I would probably take a break for at least an hour or so to clear my head. I would try to relax and assure myself that everything will be fine. Once my head is clear I would run through some practice drills to strengthen my confidence and hit the tables again (probably with a new bet spread).

-Sonny-
 
halcyon1234

halcyon1234

Well-Known Member
#17
#17
jmp said:
Is there any way you can count with these CSM shufflers in use?
Click to expand...
Yup, several ways:

1) When you toss the dealer a toke, miss and make sure the chip lands in the shuffler. Enough of these will jam it up, and they'll switch to a shoe.
1a) Instead of tossing the dealer a chip, toss them a small piece of well chewed gum
2) When the dealer isn't looking, steal the CSM. Put it in your jacket. If anyone asks, you brought the CSM in with you, it was like that when you go there. Without a CSM, they'll switch to a shoe.
3) Count anyways. Out loud. It won't work, but it should be good for someone's laugh.
4) Sit at third base at a full table. With a bit of luck, enough low cards will be dealt to get the TC up to +1, which might bring in an index play on your hand. Without doing all the calculations, I believe this will adjust the house edge by about 0.0000000001%
5) Take a few hundred bucks and turn them into singles. Give them out to the homeless around the casino, under the condition that they all go play CSM blackjack and play BS. Once you choke the tables with homeless ploppies, the house will have to open some more tables, some of which are shoes.
6) Ask the pitboss to turn off the CSM. (ha!)
6a) Ask the pitboss to turn off the CSM so you can count! (haha!)
7) Become a Hollywood-esque level mythical counter. Take the casino for billions. Then buy the casino. Then sell all the CSM on eBay, and enjoy some CSM-free tables (at your own casino, winning your own money...)
8) Count your chips. Then count 0.5% of them off and give them right to the dealer. Then count yourself out.
9) No. =)
 
EasyRhino

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#18
#18
I like the idea of stealing the CSMs:

Pit: "Hey, where'd you get that CSM in your jacket?"

You: "..."

Pit: "..."

You: "... Fell off a truck."
 
S

ScottH

Well-Known Member
#19
#19
halcyon1234 said:
Yup, several ways:

1) When you toss the dealer a toke, miss and make sure the chip lands in the shuffler. Enough of these will jam it up, and they'll switch to a shoe.
1a) Instead of tossing the dealer a chip, toss them a small piece of well chewed gum
2) When the dealer isn't looking, steal the CSM. Put it in your jacket. If anyone asks, you brought the CSM in with you, it was like that when you go there. Without a CSM, they'll switch to a shoe.
3) Count anyways. Out loud. It won't work, but it should be good for someone's laugh.
4) Sit at third base at a full table. With a bit of luck, enough low cards will be dealt to get the TC up to +1, which might bring in an index play on your hand. Without doing all the calculations, I believe this will adjust the house edge by about 0.0000000001%
5) Take a few hundred bucks and turn them into singles. Give them out to the homeless around the casino, under the condition that they all go play CSM blackjack and play BS. Once you choke the tables with homeless ploppies, the house will have to open some more tables, some of which are shoes.
6) Ask the pitboss to turn off the CSM. (ha!)
6a) Ask the pitboss to turn off the CSM so you can count! (haha!)
7) Become a Hollywood-esque level mythical counter. Take the casino for billions. Then buy the casino. Then sell all the CSM on eBay, and enjoy some CSM-free tables (at your own casino, winning your own money...)
8) Count your chips. Then count 0.5% of them off and give them right to the dealer. Then count yourself out.
9) No. =)
Click to expand...
A FULL 9 ways to beat a CSM! Great post!
 
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