A guy was dealt 8 8 vs dealer Q, but didn't have money to split... ($600 bet)

[LovinItAll]

NOTE: Out of money, unable to re-split and / or double; he made a seriously egregious error.

I think it's reasonably safe to say that, based on his behavior, his egregious error was sitting down to play in the first place.

Why would anyone out of money permit you to double on their hand? But I see it done all the time. It limit's the guy's hand to taking one card, when all he can win is single. If he has eleven, and he let's someone else double on his hand, then catches an ace, he cannot draw additional cards, and so he has raised his risk of losing the hand.

The line of reasoning, "He cannot draw extra cards." would beg the question: "Why don't YOU not double on 11 and potentially take the extra cards every time you have 11?" Letting someone in on a +EV play is just good Karma. Try it occassionally.


Best ~ L.I.A.

 

[aslan]

I think it's reasonably safe to say that, based on his behavior, his egregious error was sitting down to play in the first place.



The line of reasoning, "He cannot draw extra cards." would beg the question: "Why don't YOU not double on 11 and potentially take the extra cards every time you have 11?" Letting someone in on a +EV play is just good Karma. Try it occassionally.


Best ~ L.I.A.

Because double the winnings justifies the play. It is not justifiable to limit oneself to one card for a single win. Karma? What's that? Some form of ploppy luck?

 

[aslan]

I think it's reasonably safe to say that, based on his behavior, his egregious error was sitting down to play in the first place.



The line of reasoning, "He cannot draw extra cards." would beg the question: "Why don't YOU not double on 11 and potentially take the extra cards every time you have 11?" Letting someone in on a +EV play is just good Karma. Try it occassionally.


Best ~ L.I.A.

If Karma is equivalent to reaping what you sow, then making bad plays will reap negative EV. It is not good Karma in any AP sense of the word.

 

[LovinItAll]

Because double the winnings justifies the play. It is not justifiable to limit oneself to one card for a single win. Karma? What's that? Some form of ploppy luck?

In the case of the guy with no money left, he's giving up what, exactly? He got in that position not by being an astute gamer, but rather by being a gambler. Gamblers gamble, and they don't mind giving up a little EV (if they even know what that means) for giving another player a little action against the 'enemy'. I won't even go into the specific plays (11 v. 6, for example) that offering a percentage of the double still results in +EV for both players.

Unfortunately, if you believe that goodwill (karma) is a non-recompensable act, you've already lost.

Best ~ L.I.A.

 

[London Colin]

Gamblers gamble, and they don't mind giving up a little EV (if they even know what that means) for giving another player a little action against the 'enemy'.

That may well be so, but it's no reason to recommend that the rest of us "try it occasionally".

 

[LovinItAll]

That may well be so, but it's no reason to recommend that the rest of us "try it occasionally".

I didn't recommend that you try anything, but since you want to join the tussle, let me ask you this:

@Aslan said, "...making bad plays will reap negative EV. It is not good Karma in any AP sense of the word."

(I think he was refering to the gambler w/no money allowing another to bet a double spot.)

Notwithstanding that covering a bet as described can be +EV for both parties, I'll speak for myself and say that I can't remember when I was in a situation playing BJ where I couldn't cover a double when the situation arose. So what would your experienced, wring-every-cent-of-EV, AP self do in the following situation?

You're playing BJ and have one min bet in front of you, exactly what you plan to wager on the next hand. You have more money in your pocket - if you need it, you'll get it. You shove your bet into the circle.

You're playing with one other person that isn't a friend, but you've played with him dozens of times through the years. You're dealt 6-5. The dealer shows a 6, other guy has 8-3.

You reach into your pocket. Shnit! You've lost your money. Action is on you. You don't panic because YOU don't panic. You brush the felt.

"Wait. You're not going to double?", asks the other player.

"Nope. I'm out of money."

"Do you mind if I take the action?" You can tell he really wants to take the bet if you'll let him.

One unit. You have a 33% chance (or whatever) of winning. If you're rolled properly, the result of this hand will have less impact on your life than if you flushed the bet down the toilet. Are you such a nit that you'd say, "Sorry. If I do that, I'll reduce my chance of winning this hand by x%." (even if you just say no, he'll know that's why).

What about 2 units? 10?

You decide to say "No" because of your expert analysis and play at the BJ table. Another guy that's just joined the table watches the exchange. After you bust out, they play together for an hour discussing your nittiness.

Two weeks later, you're at a casino and you see the guy. Before you can say hello, you discover that he's leading a group of investors that are about to IPO a hot company. You also discover that, if he wants, he can let individuals in on the action. The individuals lucky enough to get the right information will profit by 20% the day of the IPO. To him, it doesn't matter from a financial perspective whether he gives you the info or not. The guy that watched you being nitty is there, too. You all sit down together and the conversation turns to the IPO.

"Thanks for the info on the IPO.", the other guy says to the guy you nitted out on.

"No problem."

"So, can just anyone get in on this?", you ask.

"Well, if I give them the info, sure.", he says.

You say, "I'm interested."

"I was interested in taking the double you couldn't cover the other night. I really don't think you can afford it. Maybe next time. Here's some DEET for your nits."

You and whoever else here can take the position that, as experienced AP's, you'll never do anything that doesn't immediately help your cause from an EV perspective. Further, you can call anyone that does a fool. That is your right, after all.

I can't remember who said it, but.....

"It's a fine line between frugal and being a cheap bastard."

Best ~ L.I.A.

 

[21gunsalute]

Karma? What's that? Some form of ploppy luck?

Religion of ploppies who claim that there is no God but that somehow everything in this godless universe balances out despite there being no God.

 

[tthree]

In LIA's example, lets say you go to the craps table to look more like a gambler than an AP. You figure Ill make a few dont bets on occasion and kill an hour until the shift change in the pit. The other guy (or someone else that witnessed the event) shows up thinking the same thing maybe. He doesnt like his dont on the points of six or eight so he always takes them down. You offer to buy them from him because that is your lucky bet but he says no. He points out you dont believe in cooperative scavenger play among players. You just gave up a 20% advantage on over 40% of the points for that hour for some small change in EV on one bet.

Karma is a bitch if you are one too.

 

[LovinItAll]

In LIA's example, lets say you go to the craps table to look more like a gambler than an AP. You figure Ill make a few dont bets on occasion and kill an hour until the shift change in the pit. The other guy (or someone else that witnessed the event) shows up thinking the same thing maybe. He doesnt like his dont on the points of six or eight so he always takes them down. You offer to buy them from him because that is your lucky bet but he says no. He points out you dont believe in cooperative scavenger play among players. You just gave up a 20% advantage on over 40% of the points for that hour for some small change in EV on one bet.

Karma is a bitch if you are one too.

And it doesn't extend to just other players. If you play long enough in any city - even Vegas - you're going to start running into the same pit crew on occassion. When you make a play (or non-play) that is recognizable for its 'un-standardness', people remember. Even the soda jerk at McDonalds may be in a position to help you one day, you know?

I ran into a dealer I met in Tunica in, of all places, NYC. She's now a buyer for Bloomingdale's and treated my GF to a nice discount and some samples from a buying show she had recently attended. What are the chances of running into someone in a city of ~14 million? It happens. x% off of a $3k purchase was very nice of her to offer, and I have to believe that I did something along the way to make her feel that offering the discount was warranted. Must've been the tips.

@Everyone who thinks giving away a double is a mortal sin: I'm not saying one should give up some huge edge over a session, but the 'allowing another player to double' doesn't give up any more EV than many other cover plays experienced AP's suggest. Really, though, since you'll always be rolled properly, why do you care what another player - ploppy or otherwise - does? Does berating another human being's actions that don't affect you make you feel better? Man, that's a tough way to live.

Best ~ L.I.A.

 

[aslan]

Religion of ploppies who claim that there is no God but that somehow everything in this godless universe balances out despite there being no God.

Illogical. A(LL&P)Z

 

[21gunsalute]

Illogical. A(LL&P)Z

Totally illogical, but nonetheless that is what they believe from what I understand.

 

[Cardcounter]

If the split was highly advantagious like two 8's vs a 7 or splitting two aces I would do it. But putting up money so somebody else could split two 8's vs a 10 is a bad move. Although it is correct basic stragedy to split on your own hand it is still a loser but on average you will lose less.