Are CSMs going to dominate
- Thread starter Meshounah
- Start date
That's what people were asking 4 years ago. 
I'm not worried about it. The machines just aren't worth the money. They speed up the game but they can be fairly unreliable. They break down, they jam and they damage the cards. Even when they work they are bad for business. It's a great idea but they have a long way to go before they are a practical device. And even then, it doesn't matter how well they work if nobody wants to play against them.
-Sonny-
I'm not worried about it. The machines just aren't worth the money. They speed up the game but they can be fairly unreliable. They break down, they jam and they damage the cards. Even when they work they are bad for business. It's a great idea but they have a long way to go before they are a practical device. And even then, it doesn't matter how well they work if nobody wants to play against them.-Sonny-
Shuffle Master now offers purchase option vs. lease
Wheeling Island, W.VA. initially had CSM's when they opened past December. They have since taken them out. Both mechanical and people not playing played a part in departure. Regardless, Wheeling is cutting 2 1/2 to 3 decks from 8D shoes. Mountaineer getting majority of action. By the way, they reported a big loss this quarter today even after considering Table Games which increased total revenue by 11%.
Wheeling Island, W.VA. initially had CSM's when they opened past December. They have since taken them out. Both mechanical and people not playing played a part in departure. Regardless, Wheeling is cutting 2 1/2 to 3 decks from 8D shoes. Mountaineer getting majority of action. By the way, they reported a big loss this quarter today even after considering Table Games which increased total revenue by 11%.
I'm guessing this was a typo, but just in case it wasn't, there are two different machines, a continuous shuffling machine (CSM) and an automatic shuffling machine (ASM).
The CSM is a fully-enclosed black box that usually sits right on the blackjack table. After each hand (or every 2-3 hands), cards are inserted back into the machine and the decks are continuously shuffled.
The ASM is a black box with an open front that usually sits behind the blackjack table. After a shoe is completed, the entire shoe is inserted into the ASM and a shuffled shoe is pulled out.
CSM's are not countable with traditional card counting; ASM's are.
CSM's are rare at high limit tables because high limit players don't like them, and rare at smaller casinos because small casinos can't afford them. ASM's are pretty standard at all tables in all casinos.
Sonny, Mimosine, and jimpenn all responded about CSM's.
The CSM is a fully-enclosed black box that usually sits right on the blackjack table. After each hand (or every 2-3 hands), cards are inserted back into the machine and the decks are continuously shuffled.
The ASM is a black box with an open front that usually sits behind the blackjack table. After a shoe is completed, the entire shoe is inserted into the ASM and a shuffled shoe is pulled out.
CSM's are not countable with traditional card counting; ASM's are.
CSM's are rare at high limit tables because high limit players don't like them, and rare at smaller casinos because small casinos can't afford them. ASM's are pretty standard at all tables in all casinos.
Sonny, Mimosine, and jimpenn all responded about CSM's.
Indices are basic strategy deviations based on the count. When the count is high, for example, you are expecting more high cards so you will stand and double down more often. They are explained in more detail in the Frequently Asked Questions thread.
-Sonny-
-Sonny-
Sonny said:
That's what people were asking 4 years ago. I'm not worried about it. The machines just aren't worth the money. They speed up the game but they can be fairly unreliable. They break down, they jam and they damage the cards. Even when they work they are bad for business. It's a great idea but they have a long way to go before they are a practical device. And even then, it doesn't matter how well they work if nobody wants to play against them.
-Sonny-
I'm not worried about it. The machines just aren't worth the money. They speed up the game but they can be fairly unreliable. They break down, they jam and they damage the cards. Even when they work they are bad for business. It's a great idea but they have a long way to go before they are a practical device. And even then, it doesn't matter how well they work if nobody wants to play against them.-Sonny-
A liitle bit of history first. BJ was popularised and glamourisied by Ian Thrope, I probably got the spelling wrong, in AC in the 50's when he introduce card counting in the US. So it is a US original which has limited following outside the US.
Outside the US you will find that card counting is amost unheard of. CSM is already used in almost 100% of the BJ tables. The problems with the breakdown and jam cards that happened up to 1 year ago has more or less disappeared with the latest model that are presently in use.
Will the US follow the rest of the world. I would say that from a productivity stand point it will. They do much more rounds per hour, speed up the game and profit for the casino and is much less work for the dealers. But then there are guys like you and others who are always preaching against the CSM althouth it does not matter one bit if the player is not counting cards.
But it does matter in the mind of the ploppy
I have to disagree with you, especially in areas where there are several casinos or more.
The player who plays horrible blackjack but plays green chips or higher is the key here for casino decisions. Today in Vegas you will find a total of zero CSM's in any high limit area and only will find a few on green chip tables at the busiest times. Compared to 6 or so years ago, the casinos have realized that as long as the customer has a choice he will reject these machines for hand shuffled or even ASM games. You are correct that it makes no difference to the non counter but as long as they believe it does they are in total control of what the casinos do.
Today you find CSM's on only the lowest of low rolling tables in Vegas and even at those California Indian casinos that have competition. Now if your casino is in an isolated area you can get away with them, but for now you would need all the owners of just about all the casinos in Vegas to get together and agree for what you see in the future happening.
I have also read that over the past several years there are less of them in use in Vegas. Do not know if this is true or not, but feel that more expensive, new, total table systems in the future, ones not as obvious as Mindplay would be a greater threat than CSM's.
ihate17
I have to disagree with you, especially in areas where there are several casinos or more.
The player who plays horrible blackjack but plays green chips or higher is the key here for casino decisions. Today in Vegas you will find a total of zero CSM's in any high limit area and only will find a few on green chip tables at the busiest times. Compared to 6 or so years ago, the casinos have realized that as long as the customer has a choice he will reject these machines for hand shuffled or even ASM games. You are correct that it makes no difference to the non counter but as long as they believe it does they are in total control of what the casinos do.
Today you find CSM's on only the lowest of low rolling tables in Vegas and even at those California Indian casinos that have competition. Now if your casino is in an isolated area you can get away with them, but for now you would need all the owners of just about all the casinos in Vegas to get together and agree for what you see in the future happening.
I have also read that over the past several years there are less of them in use in Vegas. Do not know if this is true or not, but feel that more expensive, new, total table systems in the future, ones not as obvious as Mindplay would be a greater threat than CSM's.
ihate17
Spread a negative word about CSM's!
One reason why CSM's are not used more often in casinos is players don't like to play against them. The average player does not like the fact that he doesn't have a chance to win. One good way to keep CSM's out of the casinos is to educate poor players on how bad CSM's are!
Sometimes I like to use ploppy logic when explaining how to play blackjack for instance I will say that the CSM machines mess up the order of the cards and cause you to be a loser far to often!
I will also use the logic if the dealer is showing a 9 and I have soft 18 I will say I only have an 8 vs a 19 I got to hit!
One reason why CSM's are not used more often in casinos is players don't like to play against them. The average player does not like the fact that he doesn't have a chance to win. One good way to keep CSM's out of the casinos is to educate poor players on how bad CSM's are!
Sometimes I like to use ploppy logic when explaining how to play blackjack for instance I will say that the CSM machines mess up the order of the cards and cause you to be a loser far to often!
I will also use the logic if the dealer is showing a 9 and I have soft 18 I will say I only have an 8 vs a 19 I got to hit!
question of csm's
It has been the bane of counters and non-counters alike. The casinos lose too much money when they install them in the casinos I fequent. The non-counters have sent a message to managment about csms. They refuse to play the tables where they are because they always lose so they say. The hand dealt hand shuffled shoes are packed with the people. From a managment point of view what would you do? blackchipjim
It has been the bane of counters and non-counters alike. The casinos lose too much money when they install them in the casinos I fequent. The non-counters have sent a message to managment about csms. They refuse to play the tables where they are because they always lose so they say. The hand dealt hand shuffled shoes are packed with the people. From a managment point of view what would you do? blackchipjim