Backed off!!!!

[BookerPA]

Probably not in PA. After a few visits, the local casino has recognized me as a counter. So 3 or 5 minutes after I sat down, they immediately raised the table minimal limit from $25 to $100. After it happened to me 3 times, I know the drill. I just go to $10 table minimal table. After they raise it to $25, I can comfortably play my 20 to 1 spread. I have read that counters got barred in PA. But since it didn't happen to me, I think it is a lie.

I have examined the PA Gaming Rules extensively, and there is no mention anywhere in it's language about barring a player for AP play. Here is a link to the site; section 549 pertains to Blackjack.

http://www.pabulletin.com/secure/data/vol40/40-8/323.html

 

[ArcticInferno]

Probably not in PA. After a few visits, the local casino has recognized me as a counter. So 3 or 5 minutes after I sat down, they immediately raised the table minimal limit from $25 to $100. After it happened to me 3 times, I know the drill. I just go to $10 table minimal table. After they raise it to $25, I can comfortably play my 20 to 1 spread. I have read that counters got barred in PA. But since it didn't happen to me, I think it is a lie.

BJgenius007, what you describe doesn’t make sense.
If you go to the $10 table and they raise it to $25 which is what you
wanted in the first place, how is that a countermeasure?
What do they accomplish?
Why not just play with $100 minimum and do a 1:10 spread? Bankroll?
If you do 1:20 spread (purple action) and play *daily*, you could easily
clear hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.
If you can’t be barred or backed off, and they don't half shoe or shuffle
up, then why not do it 9 to 5 daily?
Which casino was it?

 

[ArcticInferno]

I have examined the PA Gaming Rules extensively, and there is no mention anywhere in it's language about barring a player for AP play. Here is a link to the site; section 549 pertains to Blackjack.

http://www.pabulletin.com/secure/data/vol40/40-8/323.html

BookerPA, if there's no mentioning of barring (or backing off),
does that mean that they can do it, or can't do it?
Is there a mention of shuffling up or half shoeing?
Basically, my question is, what can (or can't) they do?
Will they tolerate someone sitting there twice a week
8 hours a day like a part-time job, earning a steady living?
I'm fully prepared for black minimum with constant purple action.

 

[BookerPA]

BookerPA, if there's no mentioning of barring (or backing off),
does that mean that they can do it, or can't do it?
Is there a mention of shuffling up or half shoeing?
Basically, my question is, what can (or can't) they do?
Will they tolerate someone sitting there twice a week
8 hours a day like a part-time job, earning a steady living?
I'm fully prepared for black minimum with constant purple action.

AI, these are only temporary rules. At the present time, I have no idea what they can or cannot do or will do. I know they have made some arrests for things such as phony chips and adding chips to original wagers, and these arrests were made by the PA State Police who are present at all PA casinos in the "eye-in-the-sky" room. I'm trying to find some "mental paraplegic" and have him declare himself a counter and see what happens. :laugh::laugh:

 

[aslan]

BJgenius007, what you describe doesn’t make sense.
If you go to the $10 table and they raise it to $25 which is what you
wanted in the first place, how is that a countermeasure?
What do they accomplish?
Why not just play with $100 minimum and do a 1:10 spread? Bankroll?
If you do 1:20 spread (purple action) and play *daily*, you could easily
clear hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.
If you can’t be barred or backed off, and they don't half shoe or shuffle
up, then why not do it 9 to 5 daily?
Which casino was it?

Sounds to me that you are arriving coincidentally at the time they decide to raise the limits on their tables. I have been to many casinos where they raise the table minimum as the day progresses. It is definitely not a measure taken to discourage counters. If it was, and they mistakenly sized you up to be a small stakes card counter, they wouldn't make the same mistake twice. Also, consider the possibility they had you pegged as a sucker; they might raise the limit to increase their profit margin. j/k :joker::whip:

 

[Mr. T]

I have examined the PA Gaming Rules extensively, and there is no mention anywhere in it's language about barring a player for AP play. Here is a link to the site; section 549 pertains to Blackjack.

http://www.pabulletin.com/secure/data/vol40/40-8/323.html

As I understand it casinos are private property but the conduct of the games is govern by the above legislation. If there is no language on barring a player then the owner of the private property has the right of barring a player. Apart from this the owner of a private property has the right to deny access to his property and to invoke the Trespassing Law which would come under the Common Law or Penal code.

As a side note I have read the legislation above and the Singapore legislation. The Singapore one has this wording

The game of Blackjack shall be played with one to eight decks of cards, with each deck having 52 cards without jokers and with backs of the same colour and design.

You will note that it says each deck having 52 cards

I have read the PA legislation twice and cannot find these words. It could be there somewhere and I just miss it. The difference is that the PA casino could use a short deck and gain substantial advantage over the player.

 

[aslan]

I have read the PA legislation twice and cannot find these words. It could be there somewhere and I just miss it. The difference is that the PA casino could use a short deck and gain substantial advantage over the player.

You are playing bar room lawyer. I believe in any American jurisdiction, that would be considered cheating, plain and simple, and punished by fine and imprisonment. Just because it is not explicitly in the law, it does not mean it is permissible. But I'm just speaking from a common sense point of view.

 

[Dave2112]

does anyone know if you can be backed off, or barred in NY, PA, & WV?

You have to assume that they can backoff or ban you anywhere except NJ. They may be reluctant to ban AP's for fear of inviting another NJ style lawsuit.

 

[Mr. T]

You are playing bar room lawyer. I believe in any American jurisdiction, that would be considered cheating, plain and simple, and punished by fine and imprisonment. Just because it is not explicitly in the law, it does not mean it is permissible. But I'm just speaking from a common sense point of view.

Come again, Just because it is not explicitly in the law, it does not mean it is permissible.

If there is no speed limit on the road, what is the premissible speed for you to drive on the road. The PA casino is not legal bound to have 52 cards in each deck.

 

[ArcticInferno]

Mr. T, your argument regarding the definition of a “deck” is ridiculous,
and it’s not worthy of refutation.

 

[aslan]

Come again, Just because it is not explicitly in the law, it does not mean it is permissible.

If there is no speed limit on the road, what is the premissible speed for you to drive on the road. The PA casino is not legal bound to have 52 cards in each deck.

I'm not a lawyer, but I think even I could win the case where a casino removes some of the cards from the decks in a game of Blackjack without noticing the public. I think it will fall under the general category of cheating.

By the same token, they don't post in the casinos that I play in that I cannot have cards up my sleeve, but I am not going to take the chance that they might call it cheating.

 

[BookerPA]

Come again, Just because it is not explicitly in the law, it does not mean it is permissible.

If there is no speed limit on the road, what is the premissible speed for you to drive on the road. The PA casino is not legal bound to have 52 cards in each deck.

FYI, if a speed limit is not posted on a roadway in PA, the maximum speed is fifty miles per hour.

 

[Mr. T]

FYI, if a speed limit is not posted on a roadway in PA, the maximum speed is fifty miles per hour.

You are right because this legislation is written into the Highway Code.
But for BJ there is no such default provision. Let's not get too hung up on this as this is just temporary legislaton and I have yet to see the Nevada legislation which I believe is the model for most if not all legislation.

 

[palroot]

I have read the PA legislation twice and cannot find these words. It could be there somewhere and I just miss it. The difference is that the PA casino could use a short deck and gain substantial advantage over the player.

The requirement for 52 card decks is spelled out in section 523 where it discusses equipment conditions. The pertinent paragraph is copied below:

523.15. Cards; physical characteristics.
(a) Cards used to play table games authorized under this subpart, must be in decks of 52 cards with each card identical in size and shape to every other card in the deck. Nothing in this section shall prohibit a manufacturer from manufacturing decks of cards with one or more jokers contained therein; provided, however, that the jokers may not be used by the certificate holder in the play of any game unless authorized by the rules of the game.
(b) Each deck must be composed of cards in four suits: diamonds, spades, clubs and hearts.
(c) Each suit shall be composed of 13 cards: ace, king, queen, jack, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2. The face of the ace, king, queen, jack and 10 may contain an additional marking, as approved by the Bureau of Gaming Operations, which will permit a dealer, prior to exposing his hole card at the game of Blackjack, to determine if the value of the hole card gives the dealer a Blackjack.

 

[Tico]

I'm not a lawyer, but I think even I could win the case where a casino removes some of the cards from the decks in a game of Blackjack without noticing the public. I think it will fall under the general category of cheating.

By the same token, they don't post in the casinos that I play in that I cannot have cards up my sleeve, but I am not going to take the chance that they might call it cheating.

Aslan, casinos do remove cards from some bj games without posting of a "warning-sign". For instance, all regular 10s are removed from Spanish 21. Hmm... a gambler must always ask: "what the catch?" when some games are too good to be true (i.e., S21 and no-commission-baccarat) .

FYI, if a speed limit is not posted on a roadway in PA, the maximum speed is fifty miles per hour.

only 55mph? Hmm... I wonder why, is it because of Amish buggies? :laugh:

The LS option at the Marina, the last time I checked was for only high rollers. I'm curious though where you found 6 deck S17 games at under $25. I can't imagine the Borgata would suddenly switch back after only having 8 decks for 2 months and TP never has had 6 decks for under $25...

Marina has lost lotsa of highrollers to Borg; thus sometimes the highroller pit gets no blackchippers, so it offers greenchippers bj games in the highroller pit with an option of surrender. By the way, without patrons in there, the highroller pit closes completely sometimes during graveyard shift.

On another note, TP does offer redchippers 6-deck-games sometimes during graveyard shift. The last time I had played the $15-6deckers was in February 2010. A pitboss lowered a few $25-6decker-tables into $15 at that time to compete against Hilton's $15-double-deck games.

 

[Mr. T]

The requirement for 52 card decks is spelled out in section 523 where it discusses equipment conditions. The pertinent paragraph is copied below:

523.15. Cards; physical characteristics.
(a) Cards used to play table games authorized under this subpart, must be in decks of 52 cards with each card identical in size and shape to every other card in the deck. Nothing in this section shall prohibit a manufacturer from manufacturing decks of cards with one or more jokers contained therein; provided, however, that the jokers may not be used by the certificate holder in the play of any game unless authorized by the rules of the game.
(b) Each deck must be composed of cards in four suits: diamonds, spades, clubs and hearts.
(c) Each suit shall be composed of 13 cards: ace, king, queen, jack, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2. The face of the ace, king, queen, jack and 10 may contain an additional marking, as approved by the Bureau of Gaming Operations, which will permit a dealer, prior to exposing his hole card at the game of Blackjack, to determine if the value of the hole card gives the dealer a Blackjack.

Thank you. I read it twice and miss it. But I know it must be there in the legislation somewhere. It looks like the wording is more precise and comprehensive than the Singapore version.

Now you guys just watch out for the unregulated Indian nation casinos. But I don't want to get into another such discussion here.

 

[aslan]

Aslan, casinos do remove cards from some bj games without posting of a "warning-sign". For instance, all regular 10s are removed from Spanish 21. Hmm... a gambler must always ask: "what the catch?" when some games are too good to be true (i.e., S21 and no-commission-baccarat) .

I knew when I wrote that that someone would bring up Spanish 21. First of all, Spanish 21 is not Blackjack. Blackjack has always been played with 52 card decks, and it would clearly be a cheat to run a blackjack game with some cards removed without giving notice to the customers.

Spanish 21, on the other hand, is always played with no tens. It would be just as much a cheat if the casino began removing aces from the Spanish 21 game without giving notice to its customers, because Spanish 21 is always played with all the aces. If you can't get this concept, I guess I can't make it any more simple.

 

[Mr. T]

I knew when I wrote that that someone would bring up Spanish 21. First of all, Spanish 21 is not Blackjack. Blackjack has always been played with 52 card decks, and it would clearly be a cheat to run a blackjack game with some cards removed without giving notice to the customers.

Spanish 21, on the other hand, is always played with no tens. It would be just as much a cheat if the casino began removing aces from the Spanish 21 game without giving notice to its customers, because Spanish 21 is always played with all the aces. If you can't get this concept, I guess I can't make it any more simple.

Blackjack has always been played with 52 card decks, and it would clearly be a cheat to run a blackjack game with some cards removed without giving notice to the customer

If this is the case, then tell me why there is a need for such precise and comprehensive legislation below

523.15. Cards; physical characteristics.
(a) Cards used to play table games authorized under this subpart, must be in decks of 52 cards with each card identical in size and shape to every other card in the deck. Nothing in this section shall prohibit a manufacturer from manufacturing decks of cards with one or more jokers contained therein; provided, however, that the jokers may not be used by the certificate holder in the play of any game unless authorized by the rules of the game.
(b) Each deck must be composed of cards in four suits: diamonds, spades, clubs and hearts.
(c) Each suit shall be composed of 13 cards: ace, king, queen, jack, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2. The face of the ace, king, queen, jack and 10 may contain an additional marking, as approved by the Bureau of Gaming Operations, which will permit a dealer, prior to exposing his hole card at the game of Blackjack, to determine if the value of the hole card gives the dealer a Blackjack.

 

[blackjacktilt]

Thanks for all the info!!
I didn't know this website would actually help this much!!
I was spreading $25-$125 x 2.
I never said it was Mohegan Sun :grin:

 

[BJgenius007]

Misunderstanding on casino's part.

Thanks for all the info!!
I didn't know this website would actually help this much!!
I was spreading $25-$125 x 2.
I never said it was Mohegan Sun :grin:

Probably just a misunderstanding on Casino's part. If you only spread 10 to 1, you can't win no matter how skillful you are.