Backed off.

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Preston

Well-Known Member
#1
#1
I was just backed off for the first time in nearly a YEAR AND A HALF! So that's good news.

I was backed off from Gold Strike in Tunica, MS for "Playing blackjack at a skill level that makes the casino uncomfortable with my playing it" and from what I gathered there must have been a surveillance photo of me in the pit because when I came back there later that day (about 8 hours later passing through to go to Horseshoe next door) all the pit bosses watched me like a hawk.

I wasn't ejected but I was told I could play anything but blackjack.

I didn't put up a fight but when they said I was too skilled a player my response was "Huh?"

I was wondering if I should be worried about using my players club card at any other MGM properties. I certainly won't be using when I go back there (to Gold Strike) in a few months.
 
2

21forme

Well-Known Member
#2
#2
You are probably toast at MGM properties. You can always test it somewhere else - just bring a change of clothes and a different hat to get back in if they boot you.
 
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Preston

Well-Known Member
#4
#4
This was my fourth time playing there. It was my longest session there and I think I know what gave me away.

I definately want to take a break from their properties.
 
EasyRhino

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#6
#6
How long was the session?

And there's no such thing as too many gold chains. The stories about "over gold" are just told to scare young children.
 
ihate17

ihate17

Well-Known Member
#7
#7
Mgm

I know in Vegas if you are backed off at one MGM property, you are backed off at all their Vegas properties. I would guess their computer would show your backoff wherever you go with MGM.
So you need to play unrated. If your bet level is below $25 min in Vegas, they do not rate you anyway so just play. If your bet is above $25 min, then you need to create another ID, find a card at a slot, or play unrated. If your bets, with spread, get into the couple of hundred range and you are unrated, leave the place in 45 minutes to an hour. Putting a couple of blacks on the table and not being interested in comps is a suspicious signal to them and they will evaluate you from the eye. This takes a minimum of three shoes for them to do.

Because of being aware of the information sharing and because MGM offers some of the best games in Vegas at higher bet levels, I play their games very often but very carefully. Rated or unrated, win or lose, I am out the door in less than an hour every time. If I just completed a session at MGM grand as a rated player and I now go to NYNY and play, I will be unrated or use an alternative ID for that session. Doing these things has so far kept the MGM doors open for me.

Alternative example of what not to do:
Had a friend who I tutored in some AP methods, including session length and determining if a rare camp out will work or not.
He hits a bad run of variance at the MGM Grand and decides to camp out and get his money back by spreading more aggressively. After his backoff he told me he never seemed to get any heat from the pit and he even received some fake symphaty when he lost a few big bets. He forgot that generally the pit will call the eye and then either befriend or ignore you while the eye does the work. Moral: You stand just as good of a chance of getting your money back in other casinos and less of a chance of a backoff, so do not camp out.

ihate17
 
EasyRhino

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#9
#9
Preston, next time you're at another MGM property in another state, sit at a blackjack table and give them your card. I'm sure you'll find out very quickly if you were backed off system-wide. And wouldn't expect any trouble besides after "oh, I forgot, sorry about that."

Stuff like this is what makes me think that there is an unspoken tolerance level for counting at some of the larger properties, otherwise I can't explain how I made it even a few hours. Kind of like reading a Bill Zender article bout the experiment with "detente" at the Aladdin.

Too bad they don't post those guidelines on a sign or something. Maybe a helpful pamphlet.
 
ihate17

ihate17

Well-Known Member
#10
#10
I firmly believe in temporary tolerance levels in certain casinos

EasyRhino said:
Preston, next time you're at another MGM property in another state, sit at a blackjack table and give them your card. I'm sure you'll find out very quickly if you were backed off system-wide. And wouldn't expect any trouble besides after "oh, I forgot, sorry about that."

Stuff like this is what makes me think that there is an unspoken tolerance level for counting at some of the larger properties, otherwise I can't explain how I made it even a few hours. Kind of like reading a Bill Zender article bout the experiment with "detente" at the Aladdin.

Too bad they don't post those guidelines on a sign or something. Maybe a helpful pamphlet.
Click to expand...
Based upon who is working the shift, who is the casino manager, and certainly the size action the casino is used too, there is a tolerance level that can disappear at any moment in many casinos.
A bet level low enough that it does not bother them.
A regular who counts but has a hole in his game such as putting money in their VP or slot machines.
A counter who does not bet too big but his hole is he is a constant toker.
A regular who actually has given the pits gift cards as gifts, never does anything to embarrass them and again keeps his bet level below a magic number that the casino will never let you know.
There are probably many more.

The thing is the change of one person in management or something the player does that offends them can make any tolerance for you disappear at any time, so if you have it, enjoy it but remember it probably is not forever.

ihate17
 
2

21forme

Well-Known Member
#11
#11
Here' one I haven't figured out...

A while back, I was at an HET property in AC. The PC runs my player's card, reads the screen, next thing you know, he's on the phone. About 5 minutes later, the casino mgr sits down next to me and says, very politely, "Hi (insert name here). Our system has you flagged as a skilled player. You're welcome to play, but you can only flat bet." As a test, I tried this same player's card at another HET place in AC I rarely go, and no problems at all. Odd...
 
sagefr0g

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#12
#12
21forme said:
Here' one I haven't figured out...

A while back, I was at an HET property in AC. The PC runs my player's card, reads the screen, next thing you know, he's on the phone. About 5 minutes later, the casino mgr sits down next to me and says, very politely, "Hi (insert name here). Our system has you flagged as a skilled player. You're welcome to play, but you can only flat bet." As a test, I tried this same player's card at another HET place in AC I rarely go, and no problems at all. Odd...
Click to expand...
well i guess i learned something. i didn't know they could flat bet you in Atlantic City. strange that they can flat bet you but not keep you from wonging in....... or can they stop you doing that as well?
 
D

double4more

Member
#13
#13
sagefr0g said:
well i guess i learned something. i didn't know they could flat bet you in Atlantic City. strange that they can flat bet you but not keep you from wonging in....... or can they stop you doing that as well?
Click to expand...
They can easily call for the dealer to shuffle up.
 
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Preston

Well-Known Member
#15
#15
ihate17 said:
Based upon who is working the shift, who is the casino manager, and certainly the size action the casino is used too, there is a tolerance level that can disappear at any moment in many casinos.
A bet level low enough that it does not bother them.
A regular who counts but has a hole in his game such as putting money in their VP or slot machines.
A counter who does not bet too big but his hole is he is a constant toker.
A regular who actually has given the pits gift cards as gifts, never does anything to embarrass them and again keeps his bet level below a magic number that the casino will never let you know.
There are probably many more.

The thing is the change of one person in management or something the player does that offends them can make any tolerance for you disappear at any time, so if you have it, enjoy it but remember it probably is not forever.

ihate17
Click to expand...
Here is the thing: I use blackjack as a method to fund my other forms of gambling. While there I played Craps, Carribean Stud, 3 card, Slots, and VP. Also, my wife was playing slots and VP while I was at the tables. They really had no reason to truly back me off. Most of my action that night was at the green chip level -- But no individual bet was over $100. Considering earlier that day I saw a guy playing orange I doubt My 4 green max bet was going to break them.

so if they are backing me off from blackjack alone they are just being greedy. Yeah, I know it's a hole in my game. But I have fun playing the other games when I don't have to think about what I'm doing nearly as much.

On top of all that I was tipping consistently that night too. Not much.. I figure it came out to about $1 dealer bet every 10 hands or so. Maybe some greedy dealer didn't think I was tipping enough for the money I was making. There was only one dealer there who was really personable and good. The rest kinda treated me like I could go to hell.
 
Doofus

Doofus

Well-Known Member
#16
#16
Preston said:
On top of all that I was tipping consistently that night too. Not much.. I figure it came out to about $1 dealer bet every 10 hands or so. Maybe some greedy dealer didn't think I was tipping enough for the money I was making. There was only one dealer there who was really personable and good. The rest kinda treated me like I could go to hell.
Click to expand...

There is no good reason to toke when you're being treated badly by a dealer. In fact, it is counterproductive, rewarding bad behavior.

Unless - and this is a big unless - the sullen dealers were giving you good penetration.
 
EasyRhino

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#17
#17
Well, Ian Anderson uses some play of other games (he writes of craps and baccarat) to "mask" his blackjack gaming. But it's pretty tightly calibrated to where it's a controlled expense, and he's playing at the nuclear level anyway.

But I think the rule of thumb is that a wife playing slots will ALWAYS overwhelm any advantage gained by simultaneous card counting by the husband.

If a dealer is being a douche, I've found that there's no level of tipping - or at least no level of fiscally responsible tipping - is going to stop them from being a douche.

If you're one of those types of people that is generally genial and likes to get along with folks, then I suspect you get more mileage from realizing that dealers and pit critters are people too, and engaging them on a personal level. And sometimes people just have a bad day. As long as they're still dealing the cards to where you can get the money, it's secondary.
 
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Preston

Well-Known Member
#18
#18
EasyRhino said:
But I think the rule of thumb is that a wife playing slots will ALWAYS overwhelm any advantage gained by simultaneous card counting by the husband.

.
Click to expand...
My wife really isn't that big a drain overall..

One time I had a 4 hour session where I was grinding out and made some money in the end. I figured she'd blown the entire amount I'd given her so I factored that into breaking even.

To y surprise, she was still playing with the first $20 bill she stuck in VP.
 
2

21forme

Well-Known Member
#19
#19
so if they are backing me off from blackjack alone they are just being greedy


Isn't that the business model of any casino?

IMHO, playing other games doesn't alter the odds of a back-off. If they are watching suspicious play at the BJ tables and they watch long enough to see your betting is following the count, that's all that matters. OTOH, if a computer is flagging a threshold level of won money, then a review of other play might protect you.
 
moo321

moo321

Well-Known Member
#20
#20
Preston said:
My wife really isn't that big a drain overall..

One time I had a 4 hour session where I was grinding out and made some money in the end. I figured she'd blown the entire amount I'd given her so I factored that into breaking even.

To y surprise, she was still playing with the first $20 bill she stuck in VP.
Click to expand...
Teach her to play poker. It's not hard to learn enough to break even at a $3-6 game, and then she won't be a drain on you.
 
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