Bad card counters

B

Blue Efficacy

Well-Known Member
#1
#1
It seems as if not every card counter is capable.


Last time i was at a local store, I ended up at the same table as another counter. Due to conditions, I could not move to another table, as this store loves to have all 7 spots being played on every open table, and will take steps to keep it that way.

So this guy had an interesting betting pattern, playing doubledeck, whenever the RC was +2 or above, he would bet 8 units. If it was less than that, 1 unit. Seems like jumping the gun with big bets to me, especially since he didn't appear to have a huge BR. He did wong out whenever the count got very negative, just opting to sit out the shoe

Also, he didn't appear to know all the proper strategy. The count was -3, and he didn't doubledown 11 v 8. I could be wrong, but I would think the index for not doubling there would be much lower than that?

Another thing that made me laugh was his choice to stand on soft 17 v dealer 7, going for the push.

So, that leads me to ask of other BJInfo members, how often do you see other obvious card counters whose knowledge of basic strategy and index play leaves something to be desired?
 
creeping panther

creeping panther

Banned
#2
#2
Blue

Blue Efficacy said:
It seems as if not every card counter is capable.


Last time i was at a local store, I ended up at the same table as another counter. Due to conditions, I could not move to another table, as this store loves to have all 7 spots being played on every open table, and will take steps to keep it that way.

So this guy had an interesting betting pattern, playing doubledeck, whenever the RC was +2 or above, he would bet 8 units. If it was less than that, 1 unit. Seems like jumping the gun with big bets to me, especially since he didn't appear to have a huge BR. He did wong out whenever the count got very negative, just opting to sit out the shoe

Also, he didn't appear to know all the proper strategy. The count was -3, and he didn't doubledown 11 v 8. I could be wrong, but I would think the index for not doubling there would be much lower than that?

Another thing that made me laugh was his choice to stand on soft 17 v dealer 7, going for the push.

So, that leads me to ask of other BJInfo members, how often do you see other obvious card counters whose knowledge of basic strategy and index play leaves something to be desired?
Click to expand...
Blue,

I would say the player you sat with may not have been counting as we know it and if so was not very skilled. Also when people say on this site that CC'ing is easy, I think they are very poor players to make such a statement.

To be highly skilled and to play with excellence is far from easy.

I also refrain from judging any player, I just look at things like the above as an interesting episode that adds to the color of the game.

If I am going to be hard on anybody for their play, it will be me being hard on myself...and that is how it ought to be.

CP
 
Automatic Monkey

Automatic Monkey

Banned
#3
#3
I'd guess a slight majority of the players I discover at the table who appear to be counting are substandard. There are even players who count but cannot stay away from hunches and superstition-based play.
 
B

Blue Efficacy

Well-Known Member
#4
#4
creeping panther said:
Blue,

I would say the player you sat with may not have been counting as we know it and if so was not very skilled. Also when people say on this site that CC'ing is easy, I think they are very poor players to make such a statement.

To be highly skilled and to play with excellence is far from easy.

I also refrain from judging any player, I just look at things like the above as an interesting episode that adds to the color of the game.

If I am going to be hard on anybody for their play, it will be me being hard on myself...and that is how it ought to be.

CP
Click to expand...
Yeah, that's how I saw it, an interesting episode. I am trying not to judge, but it gives me a headache when people know the absolute basics of card counting and nothing more.

It took everything in me to not make a snarky comment when the next card was a 4 when he stood on 17 v 7. But I am good at keeping my mouth shut...
 
M

mjbballar23

Well-Known Member
#5
#5
Outside of the MMOA players i had the opportunity to share a table with at the BJ Bash, i've never run into another competent counter at the tables. I've probably seen 8 or so novice counters with various flaws in their game.
 
U

Unshake

Well-Known Member
#6
#6
Blue Efficacy said:
Yeah, that's how I saw it, an interesting episode. I am trying not to judge, but it gives me a headache when people know the absolute basics of card counting and nothing more.

It took everything in me to not make a snarky comment when the next card was a 4 when he stood on 17 v 7. But I am good at keeping my mouth shut...
Click to expand...
I would say in our neck of the woods, very very few counters exist in general. I've don't think I've ever ran into a counter playing with an advantage other than ones that I've personally known.

I played a local casino, which likely could be the one in which you were talking about and had a run in with a "counter". Needless to say he was POSITIVE the casino as cheating because he said he was always seeing extreme counts and the cards would never come. I tried to bet him $250 that all of the cards were there as I had seen nothing out of the ordinary and the casino is not a small or shady joint. Anyways, he ended up not taking the bet, and I had the dealer fan the cards out to reveal they all existed.

I saw him lose 80 or so units because he was no longer using basic strategy because he was convinced no tens were the deck and proceded to leave once the deck was fanned showing all of the cards.
 
I

insomniac392

Member
#8
#8
Blue Efficacy said:
It seems as if not every card counter is capable.


Last time i was at a local store, I ended up at the same table as another counter. Due to conditions, I could not move to another table, as this store loves to have all 7 spots being played on every open table, and will take steps to keep it that way.

So this guy had an interesting betting pattern, playing doubledeck, whenever the RC was +2 or above, he would bet 8 units. If it was less than that, 1 unit. Seems like jumping the gun with big bets to me, especially since he didn't appear to have a huge BR. He did wong out whenever the count got very negative, just opting to sit out the shoe

Also, he didn't appear to know all the proper strategy. The count was -3, and he didn't doubledown 11 v 8. I could be wrong, but I would think the index for not doubling there would be much lower than that?

Another thing that made me laugh was his choice to stand on soft 17 v dealer 7, going for the push.

So, that leads me to ask of other BJInfo members, how often do you see other obvious card counters whose knowledge of basic strategy and index play leaves something to be desired?
Click to expand...
...there's always the possibility he was using a different (and possibly weaker) system than you.
 
HockeXpert

HockeXpert

Well-Known Member
#9
#9
insomniac392 said:
...there's always the possibility he was using a different (and possibly weaker) system than you.
Click to expand...
There isn't any card counting method that would have you stand on soft 17 vs anything. Unless he had some next card information or was sequencing, there is no reason for it.

And ah...craps, I'm with you. We should thank our lucky stars for the poor card counters. Those who think they can but can't only help feed the casinos with winnings so we can extract it. The majority of the counters I have enCOUNTERED, do NOT play perfectly like a machine. Some have told me flat out that they use some kind of pseudo-count method. Obviously, you aren't going to perform too well in the long run if you are chipping away at what is already a very small edge.
 
blackchipjim

blackchipjim

Well-Known Member
#10
#10
bad counters

I have to agree with creeping panther on this one. I have run into other counters at tables and some really strange ones at that but it may be a cover so good for them. The more you go to the joints the more adept you become in spotting the other aps. I have come across good aps and bad ones but hey everyone needs more practice myself included. blackchipjim
 
B

Blue Efficacy

Well-Known Member
#11
#11
Some "counters" i see are truly entertaining.

Once, one guy made no secret of the fact that he was counting aces and fives. When the ace to five ratio reached a certain point, he would start betting crazy.

The whole thing was very amusing. Plus it was almost as good as side counting aces without the effort, since he frequently said "there are X aces left in the shoe"
 
aslan

aslan

Well-Known Member
#12
#12
Automatic Monkey said:
I'd guess a slight majority of the players I discover at the table who appear to be counting are substandard. There are even players who count but cannot stay away from hunches and superstition-based play.
Click to expand...
BJBob, is he talking about you? :grin:
 
ihate17

ihate17

Well-Known Member
#13
#13
Most cardcounters are losers!

Perhaps we need a definition of who is, is not a counter, but when observing other players at a table we will never have enough information. Maybe the guy is just learning or maybe he has been a terrible counter for eternity?

Who might be a lifetime loser and thinks he is a cardcounter?

The guy who watched a movie and learned what to plus and minus but knows nothing about bet sizes, indices and never knew basic strategy in the first place. "It's plus 2, I have an edge now so I put out my max bet!"

The guy who over bets his bankroll.

The guy who under bets his advantage.

The guy who steams.

The guy who knows nothing about game selection.

The guy who does not know basic strategy

The guy who does not know indices

The guy who legitimately tried to count cards, runs into negative variance early on and decides it just does not work.

The guy who is so timid that he can not play perfect BS or make many indice plays because he can not take heat from other players.

If I sit here long enough, I am sure this list can be expanded but the overall point is that I believe the vast majority of people who try candcounting land up losing because they either do not go into it deep enough---just learning the basics or they are not emotionally strong enough.

ihate17
 
D

DeTalores

Well-Known Member
#14
#14
Heh, I just started practicing counting.
And there was an older couple at the table I was playing at yesterday, either A)they were counting or B)smart enough to bet with me(I was up quite a bit).

The thing is, I had a phone call so I sat out about 2-3 shoes in a row so the pitboss came up to me and asked if I could give up my spot because others were wanting to play. Lol so when I got back to the table the older couple said "what did you get in trouble for?" i told them what happened and they said "that is all?" lol.
I then asked them if they played BJ alot and smiled at them, they kinda laughed and said "its my game of choice".
 
creeping panther

creeping panther

Banned
#15
#15
Ya

ihate17 said:
Perhaps we need a definition of who is, is not a counter, but when observing other players at a table we will never have enough information. Maybe the guy is just learning or maybe he has been a terrible counter for eternity?

Who might be a lifetime loser and thinks he is a cardcounter?

The guy who watched a movie and learned what to plus and minus but knows nothing about bet sizes, indices and never knew basic strategy in the first place. "It's plus 2, I have an edge now so I put out my max bet!"

The guy who over bets his bankroll.

The guy who under bets his advantage.

The guy who steams.

The guy who knows nothing about game selection.

The guy who does not know basic strategy

The guy who does not know indices

The guy who legitimately tried to count cards, runs into negative variance early on and decides it just does not work.

The guy who is so timid that he can not play perfect BS or make many indice plays because he can not take heat from other players.

If I sit here long enough, I am sure this list can be expanded but the overall point is that I believe the vast majority of people who try candcounting land up losing because they either do not go into it deep enough---just learning the basics or they are not emotionally strong enough.

ihate17
Click to expand...
But...haven't you heard, counting is so easy to do....:bomb:

CP
 
ihate17

ihate17

Well-Known Member
#16
#16
Counting is extremely easy

creeping panther said:
But...haven't you heard, counting is so easy to do....:bomb:

CP
Click to expand...

Panther

I do agree, counting is so easy. The hard thing is winning at counting.
 
1

1357111317

Well-Known Member
#19
#19
This is what I have learned in my short career. The counting of the cards is the easy part. Everything else that goes with being a card counter is the tough part. I have also learned that one needs to have a certain personality to be able to be a proficient card counter. That link Pro21 posted on professional gamblers spelled that out nicely.

Here is my poor card counter story. A while back I learnt that there was another "card counter" at my local store. I was told by someone else about this person. Wanting some information about if he had experienced heat or anything I asked him a couple questions about stuff and quickly learned that he didn't know what he was talking about. Here are some of his quotes from our online correspondence

"I use the Hi-Lo, but I also use True-counting system because there are 6 decks cards at the ******** Casino"

"Everytime I went to the casino I was making atleast 400. The most I've done in one day was 3400. If I'm playing at the 25 min table, my bankroll should be atleast 2000 because you need to prepare for unlucky bad beats too"

" if the true count was at +5 I would bet 100 on two squares, just incase I miss the high cards by one or two"
 
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