Basic strategy without counting and its progression ...

[tanzeel]

I've recently started reading up on BJ seriously and one of the things that caught my attention was that basic strategy doesn't take into account the cards that have already been dealt i.e. it only considers a scenario where the deck has just been shuffled and no cards have been dealt. I just want to ask how basic strategy changes once the game has been going on for a certain amount of time e.g. 2 decks have already been dealt out of a total of 6.

My second question concerns the relationship between basic strategy and card counting. I usually don't play with much (average bet is roughly 3 GBP(5$)) and my average buy in is around 40 GBP. I was wondering how advantageous basic strategy, if used properly, can be, provided that I'm not counting card or gaining any other advantages.

PS. The dealer has to stand on a soft 17 in the casino where I play. Its the only casino in town so I can't switch to another one.

 

[shadroch]

BS, by itself is still a negative expectation game. Playing strictly BS means you will lose your money slower than playing without BS, in the long run. In the short run, anything can happen.
To properly use counting, you need to spread your bets, and a 40 X bankroll with a usual bet of 3X is not close to being enough.

 

[somtum]

PS. The dealer has to stand on a soft 17 in the casino where I play. Its the only casino in town so I can't switch to another one.

Stand soft 17 is better for the player than hit soft 17.

 

[Sonny]

I just want to ask how basic strategy changes once the game has been going on for a certain amount of time e.g. 2 decks have already been dealt out of a total of 6.

Certain hands like 16 vs. 10, 12 vs. 4, 11 vs. A and 9 vs. 2 are borderline plays that will change failrly often. When you have knowledge of the remaining cards then you might play those hands one way, then play them differently on the next round. A big bonus of card counting is knowing when to take insurance. That alone will help you more than any other playing decision.

I was wondering how advantageous basic strategy, if used properly, can be, provided that I'm not counting card or gaining any other advantages.

The answer will depend a lot on how the person plays and what the rules of the game are. The average player has around a 1% disadvantage and possibly uses a betting pattern that increses the house edge even more. A basic strategy player is around 0.5%. A smart player may also use strategies that lower the house edge even more, or increase their comps. An average player can easily lose at least twice as much as a smart player.

-Sonny-

 

[SleightOfHand]

The answer will depend a lot on how the person plays and what the rules of the game are. The average player has around a 1% disadvantage and possibly uses a betting pattern that increses the house edge even more. A basic strategy player is around 0.5%. A smart player may also use strategies that lower the house edge even more, or increase their comps. An average player can easily lose at least twice as much as a smart player.

I believe you mean increase the hourly expected loss? I suppose that one can say that a positive progression pattern may have a slight increase in HE (most winning hands are 20s / BJ), although I am unsure if that is true.

 

[Sonny]

I believe you mean increase the hourly expected loss?

Yes. The betting pattern does not change the house edge at all, it only increases the amount of money the player will lose. That is an important clarification to make. Betting patterns do not affect the house edge, only the player's win rate.

-Sonny-

 

[Sucker]

I've recently started reading up on BJ seriously and one of the things that caught my attention was that basic strategy doesn't take into account the cards that have already been dealt i.e. it only considers a scenario where the deck has just been shuffled and no cards have been dealt. I just want to ask how basic strategy changes once the game has been going on for a certain amount of time e.g. 2 decks have already been dealt out of a total of 6.

Basic strategy DOES take into account the cards that have been dealt; in THIS way: Basic strategy ASSUMES that you are not paying attention to these cards and are oblivious to them. This probably describes 99% of the people who play this game, so the basic strategy cards/charts are pretty much designed for THEM.

Counting cards will not only let you know when to raise your bet, but also when to deviate from basic strategy; depending upon which cards have come out. At that point it's no longer known as "basic strategy"; these deviations are called "optimal strategy".

PS. The dealer has to stand on a soft 17 in the casino where I play. Its the only casino in town so I can't switch to another one.

This is advantageous for the PLAYER, and it greatly REDUCES the house edge.

 

[SleightOfHand]

Basic strategy DOES take into account the cards that have been dealt; in THIS way: Basic strategy ASSUMES that you are not paying attention to these cards and are oblivious to them. This probably describes 99% of the people who play this game, so the basic strategy cards/charts are pretty much designed for THEM.

Counting cards will not only let you know when to raise your bet, but also when to deviate from basic strategy; depending upon which cards have come out. At that point it's no longer known as "basic strategy"; these deviations are called "optimal strategy".

I wouldn't say optimal strategy; it's far from it. They are merely indexes that the specific count system can recognize when to deviate from BS according to the count system you use. A count system with a higher PE would be even closer to optimal. Holecarding would be even closer. HC + next card even closer. Knowing the exact ordering of the cards I would say is optimal.

 

[Sucker]

I wouldn't say optimal strategy; it's far from it. They are merely indexes that the specific count system can recognize when to deviate from BS according to the count system you use. A count system with a higher PE would be even closer to optimal. Holecarding would be even closer. HC + next card even closer. Knowing the exact ordering of the cards I would say is optimal.

Optimal strategy is: The best strategy to employ when all AVAILABLE information is taken into account.

If you're playing heads up and it's the first hand out; then BASIC STRATEGY is the optimal strategy. If; as the OP asks; it's a subsequent hand, and you adjust your play according to the cards you've seen ; then THAT is the optimal strategy, and basic strategy is NOT. If you know the hole card, then HOLE CARD strategy is the optimal strategy.

Please don't try to confuse the issue. I STAND BY MY STATEMENT 100%.

 

[Percy]

UK Basic Strategy

To limit your losses, learning basic strategy is definitely a good idea. Unfortunately, the British games do have a fairly hefty off the top edge. Even with basic strategy, you are looking at a house advantage of roughly 0.55%. That means for every £3 pound bet you make you are (effectively) giving up 3p. That works out at roughly £3 an hour.

You could argue that is reasonable price to pay if you enjoy gambling and playing blackjack. However, that is a long run figure and you will experience fluctuations along the way. If you can deal with these fluctuations mentally and financially, then by all means go for it.

A few other points:

- Never take even money. A lot of UK players think this is a good bet. It is not.
- Play at first base. The local joints tend to have a lot of sloppy dealers and will occasionally deal themselves a card they shouldn't (usually this happens when they're checking to see if they can match your blackjack from their picture card). When this happens, they return the card to the shoe and allow you to bet knowing what your first card is going to be. If it is a picture or A - bet as much as you feel comfortable with (especially when its an A). Anything else, don't bet at all. Using this tactic will help you to reduce the house edge further.
- Once you've learned basic strategy, you could also try learning composition dependent 16 vs 10 decisions. This does not require counting and will also further reduce the house advantage. PM me if you want details on this.

A minor point:

Certain hands like 16 vs. 10, 12 vs. 4, 11 vs. A and 9 vs. 2 are borderline plays that will change failrly often.

-Sonny-

In the UK (ENHC), 11 vs A is not a borderline play.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Optimal strategy is: The best strategy to employ when all AVAILABLE information is taken into account.

If you're playing heads up and it's the first hand out; then BASIC STRATEGY is the optimal strategy. If; as the OP asks; it's a subsequent hand, and you adjust your play according to the cards you've seen ; then THAT is the optimal strategy, and basic strategy is NOT. If you know the hole card, then HOLE CARD strategy is the optimal strategy.

Please don't try to confuse the issue. I STAND BY MY STATEMENT 100%.

Not quite 100%. On the first hand, optimal strategy would be composition-dependent strategy, not basic strategy. But BS is close enough.

 

[Renzey]

Basic strategy DOES take into account the cards that have been dealt; in THIS way: Basic strategy ASSUMES that you are not paying attention to these cards and are oblivious to them. This probably describes 99% of the people who play this game

Ironically, many players who are self-styled experts do pay attention to the cards that are on the board at the moment, and overreact to them, thereby increasing their own disadvantage beyond that of basic strategy play.

Typical examples are when they have 19 or 20 and there are no other or few 10's on board, so they insure saying, "No 10's out there -- she's gotta have it!". Another is when they're dealt 11 against say, a 9 and put out their double bet ahead of time, only to see two 10's come out in front of them, at which point they pull their double back and just take a hit. The self-sabotage list goes on and on.

 

[Mr. T]

Ironically, many players who are self-styled experts do pay attention to the cards that are on the board at the moment, and overreact to them, thereby increasing their own disadvantage beyond that of basic strategy play.

Typical examples are when they have 19 or 20 and there are no other or few 10's on board, so they insure saying, "No 10's out there -- she's gotta have it!". Another is when they're dealt 11 against say, a 9 and put out their double bet ahead of time, only to see two 10's come out in front of them, at which point they pull their double back and just take a hit. The self-sabotage list goes on and on.

Where I play some people think they to know what the next card is. So for instance if the dealer has a 6, they think they know that the next 2 cards will be picture cards and ask everybody not to take a card. I have tried to tell them only 1 person knows what the next 2 cards is and his name is God and he is up there and not on the BJ table.

The only other thing I want to add to this thread is don't just pay attention to the House Advantage. The speed of play is also very important. If you are playing 1 to 1 with the dealer a HA of 0.50% becomes like a 3.00% HA because the speed of play is about 6 times fast then playing with a full table.

 

[bjcount]

The speed of play is also very important. If you are playing 1 to 1 with the dealer a HA of 0.50% becomes like a 3.00% HA because the speed of play is about 6 times fast then playing with a full table.

holy crap

is this some "T linear" or "non T linear" function?

SOH, can you help me out here?

BJC

 

[Renzey]

Where I play some people think they too know what the next card is. So for instance if the dealer has a 6, they think they know that the next 2 cards will be picture cards and ask everybody not to take a card. QUOTE]

I've asked the ploppies this question. "Is the dealer's hole card more likely to be a 10-J-Q-K -- or a 3-4-5-6? There are the same number of both, and it's the same with the next card out of the shoe. Now what do you wanna do?"

 

[bjcount]

Where I play some people think they too know what the next card is. So for instance if the dealer has a 6, they think they know that the next 2 cards will be picture cards and ask everybody not to take a card. QUOTE]

I've asked the ploppies this question. "Is the dealer's hole card more likely to be a 10-J-Q-K -- or a 3-4-5-6? There are the same number of both, and it's the same with the next card out of the shoe. Now what do you wanna do?"

Renzey,

Your too kind.

BJC

 

[Mr. T]

I can only help out if I can understand you. So you go first.

 

[Mr. T]

Where I play some people think they too know what the next card is. So for instance if the dealer has a 6, they think they know that the next 2 cards will be picture cards and ask everybody not to take a card. QUOTE]

I've asked the ploppies this question. "Is the dealer's hole card more likely to be a 10-J-Q-K -- or a 3-4-5-6? There are the same number of both, and it's the same with the next card out of the shoe. Now what do you wanna do?"

I never ask them things like that. They just tell me not to take a card because the dealer will bust.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Ironically, many players who are self-styled experts do pay attention to the cards that are on the board at the moment, and overreact to them, thereby increasing their own disadvantage beyond that of basic strategy play.

Typical examples are when they have 19 or 20 and there are no other or few 10's on board, so they insure saying, "No 10's out there -- she's gotta have it!". Another is when they're dealt 11 against say, a 9 and put out their double bet ahead of time, only to see two 10's come out in front of them, at which point they pull their double back and just take a hit. The self-sabotage list goes on and on.

And the funny thing about that is that for the most valuable play where that could have any value, hitting 16 vs. 10, that type of player would see a lot of low cards out there and probably decide to hit.

 

[StandardDeviant]

Basic strategy DOES take into account the cards that have been dealt; in THIS way: Basic strategy ASSUMES that you are not paying attention to these cards and are oblivious to them...

To be more precise about it...basic strategy outlines the correct play off the top of the shoe. The strategy doesn't assume the player isn't paying attention (how could the strategy know that ), rather BS assumes that all the cards, aside from the two the player sees, are still in the shoe.