Be honest now? Have you ever lost control? Resorted to Martingale?

[Ronnie]

I assume most of you have played blackjack much longer than I have. So I feel this is proper fodder for discussion here.

It isn't just a matter of knowing the proper strategy. It's a matter of self-control.

Now be honest.

Have you ever totally lost your composure when the cards have not gone your way and resorted to Martingale (or even worse) as a last resort?

It happend to me many years ago in Atlantic city.

The "even worse" was, when all else failed, me placing a big stack of chips on the table in front of me (not even counting them!) and hoping for a change in my luck on the NEXT HAND.

It did NOT happen and, in fact, it all but wiped me out. I did cash out about 20 dollars in chips. I won't tell you how much I started with! Too painful!!!

Needless to say my crushing defeat that day wiped out several previous winning sesssions. And, for me, it was a learning experience.

I am happy to say that I have developed a discipline and whereas these days I will approach a blackjack table with a positive attitude, I am also prepared for a "not so good" day and determined to limit my losses in each session.

That way I can enjoy the game and not become compulsive about it.

Anyway, have any of you had a similar experience to the one I descibed above?

And, if that is the case, did it change your attitude about the game of blackjack and/or about gambling in general?

 

[moo321]

I used to lose control all the time on casino bonuses. Probably 1/10 of the time I was playing a smaller bonus, I was totally on tilt. Doesn't affect EV in any way, so I didn't worry too much about it. When I had a big bonus that was a significant portion of my bankroll, I wouldn't do it. In fact, theoretically making big bets on casino bonuses is moderately +EV.

 

[shadroch]

I've had several sessions that were going badly turn much worse when I decided to up my bets hugely in an attempt to win back my losses in one swoop.
Happily,they are all in the fairly distant past.Now,I shrug off my small losses knowing that better days are just ahead.
That said,I'll always remember one session at the Imperial Palace a few years ago.I had bought in for $200,and re-bought for another $150.Losing steadily,when I decide to go for broke.I have $93 on the table so I bet $50 in one circle,$30 in the next and toss $13 in the Lucky Lady type sidebet. My big bet gets a BJ, my smaller bet gets 2 Tens of Spades which pays around 12-1 and the dealer busts.In one round I go from possibly losing $350 to being down $25.I've since experianced bigger swings,but this is one I'll never forget.

 

[EasyRhino]

I've done the reverse of being on tilt, online. Usually with sticky bonuses I set a "target" amount and play till I hit it or bust. Once in a while, I puss out, and stop playing cashout with some sort of a win, even if it's below the target amount. Just because I lose my nerve. (Usually it's when I have deposited a fairly large amount of money, or if I end up playing a lot of table max bets and am still breaking almost exactly even)

 

[Automatic Monkey]

No, I've never done it. If I believed that kind of strategy would help, I don't believe in the principles of advantage play, and if I don't believe in that, I shouldn't even be in there in the first place.

 

[Mimosine]

i avoided casinos for my entire life until only recently (last year).
legally i've had roughly a decade where i could have entered one, but from a financial point of view i was never willing to "risk" any money that i struggled hard to make.

so when i finally set foot in one, and played some slots with the gf, i recalled loving BJ as a kid and recalled good odds, and then starting learning BS and started studying counting and AP.

i have never martingaled, and i have never gone on tilt. there have been times where i have considered pushing out a 2 or 3x bet when the count didn't call for it - namely after losing 7 or 8 hands in a row, and in less than 100 hours of total play, i have had several of these instances occur!! but i've never gone "all in" which i see people do on a regular basis after losing half of their buy in....

i'm tempted sometimes, but i've read too much, studied too hard, and built up a patheticly small bankroll slow and steady to dare risk any of it.

again, i attribute this disipline to rigorous study of the game, before ever attempting to play it for money. "KO blackjack" and "Bluebook II" were my initial foundation which made me aware of the potential in all of us to "steam" or go "on tilt" and i have had these sensations before too, but resisted.

 

[sagefr0g]

i avoided casinos for my entire life until only recently (last year).
legally i've had roughly a decade where i could have entered one, but from a financial point of view i was never willing to "risk" any money that i struggled hard to make.

so when i finally set foot in one, and played some slots with the gf, i recalled loving BJ as a kid and recalled good odds, and then starting learning BS and started studying counting and AP.

wow that's my story also almost to a T. i can remmember as a kid my mother teaching me blackjack and how i found it the most interesting of card games that i'd learned. i remmeber thinking, hmm i think i can beat this game. never gambled or played blackjack up until about three years ago.

i have never martingaled, and i have never gone on tilt. there have been times where i have considered pushing out a 2 or 3x bet when the count didn't call for it - namely after losing 7 or 8 hands in a row, and in less than 100 hours of total play, i have had several of these instances occur!! but i've never gone "all in" which i see people do on a regular basis after losing half of their buy in....

i'm tempted sometimes, but i've read too much, studied too hard, and built up a patheticly small bankroll slow and steady to dare risk any of it.

again, i attribute this disipline to rigorous study of the game, before ever attempting to play it for money. "KO blackjack" and "Bluebook II" were my initial foundation which made me aware of the potential in all of us to "steam" or go "on tilt" and i have had these sensations before too, but resisted.

unfortunately i have both steamed and gone on tilt. in most every case i can attribute the most significant loss's that i've had to steaming and going on tilt. at least when i've made such 'hail Mary' moves it's been done under conditions that were impossible for me to dig deeper. steaming, chasing loss's and going on tilt is not something i subscribe to but apparently it is a problem i have that hopefully i'll be able to overcome. so far it's been very rare that i go off the deep end in this respect. i believe it has to do with anger at not being able to win, frustration with circumstances and an unwilingness to delay gratification. this i know, steaming, chasing loss's and going on tilt are a losing proposition. i can only believe that complete honesty with ones self on this issue and an intellectual understanding that it is a losing proposition is what can lead to overcomming the temptation.

 

[harpomarks]

Hi Roonie,
I think most of us at some point have our tilt button pushed and we all react a little differently. I’ve had it happen when I’ve played to long and I wasn’t winning any of my max bets and the dealer will say something like if you hadn’t doubled on that A7 against my 6 up you would have won that one. I have used the Hail Mary bet. That always works for the other guy just never for me, lol. I have since gotten myself under control and stay on task. You really need to try and be a counting and betting machine or it doesn’t work out in the long run and for me it doesn’t work in the short run either. You know like when you keep hitting you 12’s and getting a 10 to bust all day long and then the one time you pass on the hit and the next person takes the hit and get your 9. That’s your pay back from the math God, :whip: , lol. Lesson learned.
Peace, Harpo

 

[MEDITANK]

Anyway, have any of you had a similar experience to the one I descibed above?

And, if that is the case, did it change your attitude about the game of blackjack and/or about gambling in general?

Yes I have, in fact it was last night. Lost $240 with about $100 of that on a total of three split hands. Up to that particular moment of my 8 hour outing last night, I had lost 5 consecutive DD on 11. This hand was a 9 vs a dealer 6, the TC was +7 with 2D left(75% pen). I got a 2 on the 9 and DD, got a wonderful 5. The dealer? Ohhhh, well, I discovered too often enough last night, that sometimes card counting cannot overcome the ravages of standard deviation. Too bad it cannot, but over the long run I guess that it can for 90% of AP's. Dealer got a 9 to beat my DD, I ended up losing the 2nd of the split hands and pushed on the 3rd split. I guess it could have been worse. As the night wore on, I lost 4 more DD's and they were all on 11 vs. dealer 5's, 6, 7-9's. 0 for 9 on DD. I mean c'mon. I believe in BJA, it is quoted that DD wins 7 for every 5 losses. I lost count of the DD win/loss ratio last night but I know I was still way under 50%. In fact, I made more profit playing negative shoes last night, than I did during positive shoes. This has me shaking me head wondering why I even play this game and go thru the mental stress of AP life. Personally, I believe this game is not for me anymore as I really can't justify the risk/reward vs. expense outlay for my particular BR and EV expectations.

 

[sagefr0g]

...... This has me shaking me head wondering why I even play this game and go thru the mental stress of AP life. Personally, I believe this game is not for me anymore as I really can't justify the risk/reward vs. expense outlay for my particular BR and EV expectations.

tough ain't it? thing that i think about is that life in general is like that also. take a job for instance. pretty mundane for the most part but there is often double bind problems lurking that rear their ugly heads. next thing you know your grapheling with some intractible double bind situation that threatens your job security. just driving to work or the grocery store is an enormous risk this day and age. blackjack ap play is kind of an accelerated fractal of all the other phenomenon in life that one might try and eeck out some scratch from.
brings to mind that country western song about the couple trying to make a go at life and how the odds are stacked against them the refrain then goes "yeah but they just might make it" :violin:

 

[MEDITANK]

tough ain't it? thing that i think about is that life in general is like that also. take a job for instance. pretty mundane for the most part but there is often double bind problems lurking that rear their ugly heads. next thing you know your grapheling with some intractible double bind situation that threatens your job security. just driving to work or the grocery store is an enormous risk this day and age. blackjack ap play is kind of an accelerated fractal of all the other phenomenon in life that one might try and eeck out some scratch from.
brings to mind that country western song about the couple trying to make a go at life and how the odds are stacked against them the refrain then goes "yeah but they just might make it" :violin:

Thanks Sage, believe me I can feel your pain from your prior beatings. Your post is very true, life goes in streaks very very much. With my current situation, I don't have a heck of alot of discretionary monthly cash flow, so I really can't sustain any hard luck stories. My wife doesn't bring in hardly any money and that is the primary reason for the cash flow situation. My net worth is nothing to sneeze at and I have zero complaints on how life has treated me thus far. Made a fortune in real estate and doing not so bad in the market.

I need the EasyRhino variances since I am only starting out. Playing these s hitty $5 BS games with 50 decks instead of 1 or 2D is very tiring. I cannot imagine those that are stuck having to play with an 8D game!!!

basically speaking, since the cutcard came out on the next deal, I was that close to missing out on this ballistic count, I just said F' it and tried the best I could. I understand ROR. The odds of getting a shoe situation I came across last night is less than 4% as you all know very well. I would do it again in a heartbeat.

 

[ScottH]

I've done the reverse of being on tilt, online. Usually with sticky bonuses I set a "target" amount and play till I hit it or bust. Once in a while, I puss out, and stop playing cashout with some sort of a win, even if it's below the target amount. Just because I lose my nerve. (Usually it's when I have deposited a fairly large amount of money, or if I end up playing a lot of table max bets and am still breaking almost exactly even)

The martingale is actually more +EV then flat-betting for bonuses. Even for non-sticky bonuses. In the case of non-sticky bonuses, you get the same EV, but you have a higher average bet so you decrease your time played, increasing your hourly EV.

 

[blackchipjim]

martin who

I wish I had the dough to even try to go on tilt with martingale. Before I started counting I used discipline in the game. All the non counting books on gambling had a section or chapter on it and I always tried to stick to money management. blackchipjim

 

[EasyRhino]

I need the EasyRhino variances since I am only starting out.

Lol. Maybe I should write a book.

But seriously, the biggest "positive variance" for me is successful whoring of online bonuses. It takes an unlikely amount of negative advances to overcome those advantages.

The martingale is actually more +EV then flat-betting for bonuses. Even for non-sticky bonuses. In the case of non-sticky bonuses, you get the same EV, but you have a higher average bet so you decrease your time played, increasing your hourly EV.

True, but...

I play big early, get to an "acceptable" level, and then grind out with smaller bets. If my balance drops below an "acceptable" level, I increase bets again until I get back to that level or bust out. I get a key speed advantage from not having to click buttons to resize bets. It's martingalish, but with less futzing around. And busting out at the very very beginning of a bonus saves tons of time.

 

[halcyon1234]

Yup. The second online bonus I ever did. For some reason, I started throwing out a big bet or too. Big enough to have a, like, 70% risk of ruin. =) Anyways, I ended up $600 over EV. Yay. However, it took a while to get the payout-- about 24 hours until the wagering requirement kicked in. So I figured, why not play some roulette?

I played a few $1 hands, saw a lot of reds, and figured "hey, let's play some big black bets!" I think I put some money down on black, and 28 (and the numbers surrounding it). It hit, and suddenly, I had about $980. There were still some hours to kill, so I figured "hey, lets Martigale it up to and even grand".

At $997-- yup. $1 became $2 became $5 (I didn't feel like click $1 so much) became $10 became $20 became $40 became $80 became $160 became $300. To this day, I don't really understand why I did it. In my mind, I was going "fkcing stop this. You're still up several hundred. Walk away. Don't you dare fscking put down $500". But I did, and the (10th?) black in a row came up.

I was sad for a long while, but mostly angry at myself. I knew the math. Yet THE Fallacy didn't seem so Fallacific with 9 blacks on "the board".

In the end, I still ended up ~$25 over EV. I thanked my lucky stars I hadn't lost my bankroll, cashed out-- and said "I won't MG any more".

The next casino was a $200 100% bonus. About $1000 in, I hit a big losing streak of flatbets. Got ticked. Started spreading to multiple hands. And then, with 5 $1 hands out-- started martingaling ALL OF THEM.

My remaining $120 quickly went down to about $20. I started pushing all-in, desperate to get some of it back. Made it to ~$50, stopped, watched my flat bets lose, figured again "I was due", and lost it all. -$200, just over 1/3 of my bankroll at the time.

Again, pissed off, grateful I still had money left-- then angry again at myself.

Yet, there was still some part of me that said "hey, just MG to $4, you'll win big". Then the math part of me went "Even if you do that to lower your RoR-- no matter HOW you bet, in the longrun, you'll ALWAYS have the same EV. The only thing you accomplish is earning a much, much higher RoR."

One thing that really got my attention was one of the monthlies I do. It's a blackjack Autoplay, with ~900 hands to be played to clear the WR. I sat down, and watched the entire thing. Some time into it, I saw I was down ~25% of my chips. Part of me wanted to stop the autoplay, start betting big. But I said "No, just watch". And sure enough, variance started to iron itself out, and I ended up in EV.

So now, I have "NO MARTINGALE" written in big letters on my monitor. I've never MG'd live, and never plan on it. (I guess the larger stakes make that impossible anyways ). Thoguh I do admit that about once ever 500 $1 hands (online) I'll play a single $5-- just for the thrill of it. =) (All it does is add $0.01 to my average bet. I can live with that)

 

[jack.jackson]

Yes I have, in fact it was last night. Lost $240 with about $100 of that on a total of three split hands. Up to that particular moment of my 8 hour outing last night, I had lost 5 consecutive DD on 11. This hand was a 9 vs a dealer 6, the TC was +7 with 2D left(75% pen). I got a 2 on the 9 and DD, got a wonderful 5. The dealer? Ohhhh, well, I discovered too often enough last night, that sometimes card counting cannot overcome the ravages of standard deviation. Too bad it cannot, but over the long run I guess that it can for 90% of AP's. Dealer got a 9 to beat my DD, I ended up losing the 2nd of the split hands and pushed on the 3rd split. I guess it could have been worse. As the night wore on, I lost 4 more DD's and they were all on 11 vs. dealer 5's, 6, 7-9's. 0 for 9 on DD. I mean c'mon. I believe in BJA, it is quoted that DD wins 7 for every 5 losses. I lost count of the DD win/loss ratio last night but I know I was still way under 50%. In fact, I made more profit playing negative shoes last night, than I did during positive shoes. This has me shaking me head wondering why I even play this game and go thru the mental stress of AP life. Personally, I believe this game is not for me anymore as I really can't justify the risk/reward vs. expense outlay for my particular BR and EV expectations.

Damn,that sucks i bet you were about ready to get sideways with the dealer.
I think everybody here can relate to that black despair every now and again. Lady luck has a heart of stone and she will leave you profound and aware, yet, lost and alone, in the blink of an eye if your not careful. Blackjack is a game that we just love to hate. Sometimes losses like this take awhile to get over.
In times like this, its always best to take a step back and take a deep breathe. Re-evaluate your game, and think things over, and when your ready! Get back up on the saddle and try it again! Thing's always look better tomorrow, than they do today.

 

[MEDITANK]

A big thank you to all. I know all of you or most of you have gone thru a day or two like my nightmare. I have learned so much from reading all of your posts. My fav thread is still "Man, this counting stuff is hard!"
What an encouraging thread. been reading BJA and this is my 3rd book that I have read. That book is information overload. I cannot read that book as fast as the others, but it's the info I retain that mattters, not how fast I can read a book. More importantly, it's how I apply and retain that knowledge to my daily game. To learn what it means to have steel nerves, resolve that doesn't change. And it attitude that wants to rip the heads off of dealers:gun:

 

[ihate17]

The angry steamer

You can not do this too often in the same casino before someone might catch on but it the right circumstances come up, I go for it.

Count is getting very high and I am losing more hands than I am winning. Go through this emotional looking thing, measuring my chips, talking about changing the flow and going to two hands, pulling out cash from my pocket so I am ready to buy more. Talking out loud about how many I might have lost, feeling that this is time to get it back in a bet or two and then standing up, leaning over and putting the big bet out. If I win, then "OK lets see if I can break my personal record and win two in a row." Lose and they somewhat expect you to raise your bet higher or go to two big hands but do something to get that money back, so if the count justifies it, I do not disappoint them.
It is more the act than the actual amount as I am not using a strict progression, but the measuring of the chip stacks just might seem like it is.

It can be quite an entertaining show when I am in action. Win or lose, I might shortly take a break and mention to the pit that I need time to get my emotions back to normal.

ihate17

 

[MEDITANK]

Just out of curiosity, maybe this has already been done, but has anyone ram a sim on the various +TC's of a shoe vs. the expectation of the # of consecutive losing hands one could expect? I suspect that the higher the TC is, the lessor the # of consecutive losses one would expect to face. I remember reading in here that at a neutral count, one can expect a minimum of 3 distinct 10 hand or more losing streaks per 1000 hands. This might be an interesting sim to run. JMHO. Much appreciated if someone would post the sim results in this thread. TIA.

 

[dacium]

I resorted to martingale once to show my brother why it wouldn't work. Needless to say I won about 20 units and I only started with enough to cover 4 lost hands in a row.