Best counting system for SD & DD

M

matt21

Well-Known Member
#1
#1
Hi everyone, hope you are well and getting some good playing done!

Thus far I have been playing 4D and 6D games. For 4D and 6D I have been using Hi-Lo with around 30 index plays as well as 5-6 standard cover plays.

I am planning to play some SD and DD in the near future. What counting system should I use for SD and DD? How many index plays should I accommodate – I am not looking to get the nth degree of benefit here – more like how many index plays do I need to use to cover 70-80% of the potential benefit of all index plays (somewhat similar to the Illustrious 18 concept for shoe games)? And does the choice of the most appropriate counting system depend on the pen level?

In terms of bet ramp I understand that I should be aiming for 1-4 or 1-6 but not much more than that because of much higher heat for SD/DD compared to 4D/6D?

Thanks in advance for any comments that you all might have!
Matt
 
FLASH1296

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#2
#2
The Best Counts for "Pitch Games":

  1. Hi-Opt II
  2. Advanced Omega II
  3. ZEN

For you I suggest learning ZEN as it does not require side-counting Aces.
As far as indices to use, the Illustrious 18 will ordinarily suffice,
it is worthwhile adding the indices for doubling 8 vs. 6, 5 and 4.
 
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iCountNTrack

iCountNTrack

Well-Known Member
#3
#3
I would use Hi-Opt II with an Ace side count, the good think about it is that you can use Hi-Opt II without the Ace side count in pitch games and it will fair better than Hi-Lo.

As far as bet spread for SD i dont see you lasting for long with a bet spread larger than 1-4, but with H17 SD 55%, 1-4 is not a bad game (granted you have a full BJ payout), with Hi-Opt II/ASC SCORE is about 100... Good old SD :)
 
FLASH1296

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#4
#4
In shoe games ZEN handily outperforms Hi-Opt II without side-counted Aces.

Indeed, the best feature of ZEN is that "one size fits all"

That is to say that it is fine for shoes and "pitch games"
 
Automatic Monkey

Automatic Monkey

Banned
#5
#5
Alternative: Unbalanced Zen, running count and/or true counted mode.

The advantage of an RC system is that in a pitch game it's easy for deck estimation to be thrown off by the way the dealer holds & handles the cards.

Level 1 alternatives: Revere Plus-Minus with ace sidecount, or Hi-Opt I with ace sidecount.
 
H

Harry1941

Active Member
#6
#6
I like speed counting the best. I been practiving with 2-6 decks.2-4 Starts at 30,and 6 decks starts 27,8decks starts
at 26. The best one is 2-4 decks,which starts at 29 or 30.The count goes higher quickly. No matter how many decks you play, at 31 the player has the edge.Below 31 the player should bets the smallest,but when the player reaches 21, they put up 2 units.

At most casinos they use 6 decks, and with speed count, that starts at 27. It takes longer to reach 31, but you need to wait. All you need to do is add up small cards 2-6 and subtract the amount by the mumber of players at the table, including the dealer. It is best to play alone with the dealer or with two persons.

Harry:)
 
FLASH1296

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#8
#8
To all readers, (other than Harry1941),

I always try to be respectful of my elders, and I am hunching that 1941 is Harry's birth year,
making him old enough to be my . . . older brother.

Feeling comfortable inferring that Harry does not mean to endorse this so-called system; it behooves me to comment:

"Speed Counting" is, (more or less), the worst count ever devised; [sold to unwary oldsters, clueless tourists,
and others who doubt their intellectual capacity], by the infamous casino "huckster", Frank Sclobete.

Incidentally, Sclobete's book on Spanish21 is worse than worthless, as it provides a
VERY incorrect Basic Strategy and the absurd advice not to count cards at the game.

Sclobete's Craps I have never actually read, but, "buyer beware"

"Forewarned is Forearmed."
 
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H

Harry1941

Active Member
#9
#9
There is a reason why speed count BS saids to stand on 16 against the dealer's 10. Double on soft 18 A-7 against the 6. Double on 8 against the 5 and 6. The reason for this is keep the pit boss thinking I don't know what I am doing. They are so stupid they don't know that I have an edge.When I use speed counting I can talk to anyone at or near the table. When you do hi and lo counting your eye balls must be on every card that come out of the shoe. You can't be looking at women walking by,because if you do the only thing that will go up is you dick. Oh ****,I lost the count looking at that chick's boos.

Harry:laugh:
 
Jack_Black

Jack_Black

Well-Known Member
#10
#10
Harry1941 said:
There is a reason why speed count BS saids to stand on 16 against the dealer's 10. Double on soft 18 A-7 against the 6. Double on 8 against the 5 and 6. The reason for this is keep the pit boss thinking I don't know what I am doing. They are so stupid they don't know that I have an edge.When I use speed counting I can talk to anyone at or near the table. When you do hi and lo counting your eye balls must be on every card that come out of the shoe. You can't be looking at women walking by,because if you do the only thing that will go up is you dick. Oh ****,I lost the count looking at that chick's boos.

Harry:laugh:
Click to expand...
I have a feeling 1941 does not denote his birth year.

I can drink martinis, joke with the dealer, and hit on the waitress while doing hi opt 1 ASC, or hi lo at shoes. It is a skill that is easy to master given enough practice, i.e., don't use speed count. well, unless you are just trying not to lose your shirt, and really enjoy gambling, then yes, speed count is acceptable. It's a better option than praying to god, or blaming people for "messing up the flow of the cards"
 
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Jack_Black

Jack_Black

Well-Known Member
#11
#11
FLASH1296 said:
by the infamous casino "huckster", Frank Sclobete.........

............Sclobete's Craps I have never actually read, but, "buyer beware"

"Forewarned is Forearmed."
Click to expand...
I thought he was one of the forerunners of dice control? he has Dom "dominator" in his back pocket and he's always throwing dice control tournaments. Stanford Wong seems to compete at these shin digs, and he does....eh, fair.
 
FLASH1296

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#12
#12
As I said, I never read his dice book, but Stanford Wong (John Ferguson) is several years my senior, and I collect social security checks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_Wong

I feel that anyone older than i am is unlikely to have the requisite fine eye/hand coordination needed to make money tossing the cubes; but I could be wrong, as I often am.
 
creeping panther

creeping panther

Banned
#14
#14
Jack,

Jack_Black said:
I have a feeling 1941 does not denote his birth year.

I can drink martinis, joke with the dealer, and hit on the waitress while doing hi opt 1 ASC, or hi lo at shoes. It is a skill that is easy to master given enough practice, i.e., don't use speed count. well, unless you are just trying not to lose your shirt, and really enjoy gambling, then yes, speed count is acceptable. It's a better option than praying to god, or blaming people for "messing up the flow of the cards"
Click to expand...
I am impressed:cool:

You sound like alot of fun Bro':laugh:

I look forward to meeting you at the tables;)

CP
 
H

Harry1941

Active Member
#16
#16
Jack_Black said:
I have a feeling 1941 does not denote his birth year.

I can drink martinis, joke with the dealer, and hit on the waitress while doing hi opt 1 ASC, or hi lo at shoes. It is a skill that is easy to master given enough practice, i.e., don't use speed count. well, unless you are just trying not to lose your shirt, and really enjoy gambling, then yes, speed count is acceptable. It's a better option than praying to god, or blaming people for "messing up the flow of the cards"
Click to expand...
Yes it does.I was born 08/11/1941.

Harry:)
 
Tarzan

Tarzan

Banned
#17
#17
Ultimate

Flash, you know what the ultimate counting system is for single and double deck that is more effective than Zen or HiOptII. The only problem is that it is nothing that too many have heard of or could master in any short period of time, so not worth even going into here.
 
S

steve waugh

Member
#18
#18
Gordon Count

Tarzan,

Are you talking about the Gordon Count devised by Griffin?

However Hi OptII with side count of Aces and 7s can be more effective. With side count of Aces you have 67% PE, with 7s you get 75% PE. There are a few key plays that can get the most out of the 7s side count.

Mail me for details.

regards
Waugh
 
Tarzan

Tarzan

Banned
#19
#19
Bingo!

DHME, Gordon count, it is called numerous things with the variations of it and degrees of what is added for side counts, etc. but all the same thing. I refer to my own modified version of Gordon/DHME as the "Tarzan" count, since I have modified it all to my liking and specifications over the years. I have modified it to something that is way beyond the original Gordon count or basic DHM. It's all variations of the same principles and theory. Flash and I have been back and forth forever with most advantageous side counts. Aces side count is mandatory minimum but it's those tricky 6-9's that we are back and forth with as to most effective side counts to add in. As a matter of fact Flash and I are meeting up this week and we will break each other's balls about EOR and side counts!

It's as I said about not worth throwing into the equation since to learn this system would likely be considered as difficult to learn if you are used to other more standard counting methods as it is obscure. I am unfamiliar with HiOptII other than glancing over the mechanics of it and reading the stats on it as compared to other counting methods. Flash swears by it (HiOptII) and I trust his judgement but it's not like I am going to switch from what I know like the back of my hand (that has such fantastic tried and proven results) to something else that I would have to throw the book away and start over from scratch. "If it's not broken, don't try to fix it" is my motto.

With all that being said I wish to say to everyone,"Go learn HiOptII!"
 
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FLASH1296

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#20
#20
The long and the short of it is that Multi-Parameter counting is very difficult with Aces and Sevens alone ...
… but by grouping the Hi - Lo - Medium Cards and Aces you have 4 counts to juggle.

The magic of the "medium" grouping is that it gives you considerable information on how to play your "stiffs"

Normal Card Counting Indices for the play of stiff hands, (especially stiffs vs,. stiffs) are VERY POOR.

I have spent a lot of time observing Tarzan's play. Tarzan's expertise has my respect and admiration.

If you are as razor sharp as Tarzan is, then you to can rule the roost in mediocre shoe games;

but be forewarned that it is plenty hard to do with accuracy and alacrity.

And you will have to compute your own indices by Brute Force as there are no computer applications that I know of that can handle this .
 
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