BJ is a dangerous and deceptive game

[Mikeaber]

I was talking about people who walk into a casino, sit down at a blackjack table, having taken no time to learn basic strategy, or any strategy at all, and proceed to watch their bankroll fade into oblivion, then justfy their misfortune with the statement I described above. I believe there is such a thing as entertainment value. But if I can buy it for .65 or less, while at the same time, cover my RFB, my "entertainment" will surely last longer, and I may just happen to go home with some extra cash.

I saw just such a player last night Tribute. Redneck (and that's merely descriptive and not a slam) had bought in for $60. After the first few hands I played, I could tell he had no concept of the game. Didn't recognize or act on doubles and splits and was hitting many hands that he should have stood on. I know of 4 times he left the table and came back with $60 to rebuy and he was playing. His betting was all over the place ($2-$25 table). Toward the end when I was getting ready to color up, he lost 4 or 5 hands in a row and in frustration put out a $25 bet and drew a pair of 8's against a dealer 3. He gave the dealer a double-down signal and (bless her) she explained that he really should split the 8's and not double them. He did, drew two 18's and got beat by a dealer 20 I think.

In fairness to the poor smuck, he was not hitting cards that would win on even the best doubles so he probably did himself a favor by not trying to take advantage most of the time. He was just snake-bit and compounded it with poor play.

I was sitting too far away from him to cash in on buying his doubles and splits (7 players at the table) without causing too much confusion. They've let me buy doubles and splits in the past down there but they really don't like it...too complicated for them to arbitrate the split of wins <LOL>

I guess I don't understand it. Do you think people think that there is "nothing to" the game? Mindless play just as if playing slot machines?

 

[tribute]

He just honestly did not know how. We all had our debut somewhere. I'm the type that does not want to appear ignorant. When I decided to become a serious player, I found websites, read books, and practiced hours before going back to the casino. I also learned to avoid games with bad rules. If he has the desire, Mr. Redneck will even become a better player.

 

[zengrifter]

I don't understand this. This is like the 5th trip in a row I've made to Oklahoma and played $5 flat betting against a $.25 ante....and WON. This time, I played for 4 hours and ended up $165.00.

Very degenerate behavior, for you to play such a game. Now, Karmically-speaking, you are destined to find a really great game, and you will lose your ass! zg

 

[Mikeaber]

Very degenerate behavior, for you to play such a game. Now, Karmically-speaking, you are destined to find a really great game, and you will lose your ass! zg

It's happened already ZG...several times <LOL> But usually, I fall into the percentages (lose to the house edge and not much more one way or the other.) That's why this degenerate table throws me for a loop. What I'm experiencing down there is something that I cannot account for!

Some little bit of it is being able to read one of the dealers some of the time. They rotate three dealers between two tables. They do not use the peepers to check for Aces...they look. I can nearly always tell when the dealer has a "4" down...dealer will take a second look thinking the top of the "4" is the top of an Ace. The other tell is the way that dealer's jaw usually clenches when there is a Face down. Most of the time, if the down is between 7 and 9, an eyebrow will twitch. On the low cards, face is completely relaxed. I know this dealer is disappointed in the job because there are not many tokes....too much forfeited to the ante for players to afford to toke. Facial tells reflect the expectancy of getting tokes! Doesn't always work, but when it does, it helps in deciding what to do on those stiff hands!

 

[tribute]

Mike,
Oklahoma is less drive time for me, but I will not play that type of game. I would rather play on a four hour gambling ship with better rules and no ante.

 

[zengrifter]

What I'm experiencing down there is something that I cannot account for!

Its called VARIANCE, my man! zg

 

[E-town-guy]

Some casinos base your comps on a rate of 2% of your total action(time at the tables X average bet) and return a portion of that in comps. In Zen's example, 40% of the 2% was awarded to the player.

Why did they take 40% of the 2%? Is that standard procedure? The comp thing doesn't make much sense to me. Where I play there are really no comps or free drinks. If you are really nice to the pit boss he might "comp" you a bottle of water or pop, but that is rare. The only time I've ever got anything though was when a stupid waitress spilt the player next to me's beer on me so the pit boss was kind enough to comp me...a bottle water.

I think before I make my first trip south the Vegas I'll read that comp book.

 

[tribute]

They didn't take it. They gave it back to you. If they gave you back the entire 2%, theoretically the casino makes nothing. Then you and I would have no place to play any longer. They would be out of business.

 

[E-town-guy]

I know they didn't take it. What I was asking is why they calculate 2% of your total play then give you back 0.4%. Why not just calculate 0.8% off the top to save time? I was also wondering if 2% and 0.4% are standard comp rates.

 

[tribute]

I don't know the mechanics of it all. Depending on the casino, they ASSUME a 2% margin of profit on Blackjack for comp purposes. To keep players happy and to keep them coming back, they have a system in place to award cash, food, and discounted or free hotel stays. I don't ever wonder HOW they do it.
I just keep playing and they keep giving me free stuff. They figure how much TIME you play and how much $$$ you wager. I don't believe it matters how much you win or lose. They figure the longer you stay, the more THEY make. Some casinos in Vegas won't even rate you until you start playing $25 per hand. I get rated for my red chip play in Louisiana. My rooms are always comped and I never pay cash for food and beverages. They also send me cash vouchers on a monthly basis. During my play in 2003 I managed to average about $16 per hour winnings and the comps kept coming!

 

[johntks]

I don't understand this. This is like the 5th trip in a row I've made to Oklahoma and played $5 flat betting against a $.25 ante....and WON. This time, I played for 4 hours and ended up $165.00. I figure that with the slow play down there, we are lucky to get in 35 hands per hour (13 hands per shoe and 3 shoes per hour.) $.25 with a $5 bet plus the .65% house edge makes the true house edge as far as I am concerned, 5.65%! The ante over that 4 hours cost me $35 so without the ante, I would have been up $200.

No comps to complicate matters in Oklahoma unless you put some value on coffee and soda pop.

Maybe I should just start looking for the worst games to play! Maybe 6:5 BJs???????

Mike, While are talking about senseless play (I am too polite to say stupid), how about the game you are playing yourself. I don't mean to say you don't play according to BS. I mean the game you are playing has the ante. This is a no-no in any BJ book. It looks to me like your house advantage is actually 5.65%. Maybe Ken or other knowledgeble person can confirm this.
If this is the case you would actually be better off by playing the worst roulette game. As for your 5th time winning streak could this be just being lucky. Will it last some more or will you be rock by this sometime.

 

[E-town-guy]

I've always wondered why someone knowledgeable like Mikeaber doesn't count but I think he said he's waiting for something. Perhaps he's going to pull off something like Oceans 11. I don't know the exact ev value but that would probably have a better return on your money when compared to counting. I wonder if any of the sims could figure that out

 

[zengrifter]

I know they didn't take it. What I was asking is why they calculate 2% of your total play then give you back 0.4%. Why not just calculate 0.8% off the top to save time?

The 2% is a game-dependent variable while the 30-.40 comp reward is a constant. zg

 

[zengrifter]

Mike, While are talking about senseless play (I am too polite to say stupid), how about the game you are playing yourself. I don't mean to say you don't play according to BS. I mean the game you are playing has the ante. This is a no-no in any BJ book. It looks to me like your house advantage is actually 5.65%. Maybe Ken or other knowledgeble person can confirm this.
If this is the case you would actually be better off by playing the worst roulette game. As for your 5th time winning streak could this be just being lucky. Will it last some more or will you be rock by this sometime.

Hey, it might be a sh*t game, BUT its the only game in town! Seriously, Mike, this is strictly a SUCKER's game, and that makes you... zg

 

[Canceler]

Unsolicited comments on Mikeaber's ability

1) Last I heard Mike was at least dabbling with counting. If he's waiting for anything it's to gain more confidence in it, or to work up the nerve to use the bet spreads necessary to make it profitable.

2) Shouldn't this count for something? Maybe a lot?

I can nearly always tell when the dealer has a "4" down...dealer will take a second look thinking the top of the "4" is the top of an Ace. The other tell is the way that dealer's jaw usually clenches when there is a Face down. Most of the time, if the down is between 7 and 9, an eyebrow will twitch. On the low cards, face is completely relaxed.

None of this should be taken to mean that I think playing BJ with an ante is a good idea, though.:yikes:

 

[zengrifter]

1) Last I heard Mike was at least dabbling with counting. If he's waiting for anything it's to gain more confidence in it, or to work up the nerve to use the bet spreads necessary to make it profitable.
2) Shouldn't this count for something? Maybe a lot?

Oohh... I see, its practice! zg:laugh:

 

[Midnite]

Oklahoma. BJ

Mike didn't drive to Oka. to play BJ.
He went after smokes (much cheaper down there).
While there, no doubt his wife was playing slots.
His choices were :
(1) stand around (2) play slots (3) play BJ with a 25 cent ante

Given the same choices I would also play some BJ, even with the 25 cent ante.

 

[TENNBEAR]

Mikeabear in Oklahoma

Great streak Mike keep it up, hope it last. On your 5th consecutive winning trip you managed to still risk only a c-note and turned it into a 265.00.The point being that after four previous back to back wins you still have enough discipline to hold your betting limits down, knowing that that old monster math is due to show his ugly head. Disipline in gambling is a key element of any game strategy. Keep in mind the fact that Mike is risking only100.00 on this game, even on a bad game there is some value for entertainment, when a better game is not available.
On my last trip to Tunica I logged many hours on a great single deck game. On saturday night when the casino really got crowded and scouting for a table was reduced to finding one with a seat. I found myself at a table with 10.00 min 6 deck shoe, I took 375.00 from that table, the most profitable session the whole weekend, go figure, with the varance in this game.

 

[Mikeaber]

Variance

The old man caught up with me last night. Played for 5 hours and lost what I'd won the night before (and a little more).

Yes, Midnite is right. This is an Indian Casino constructed of metal building welded together. It is mostly a Bingo Hall with wings that have a lot of slot machines in them. People put their names on a list to sit at the two (some times, just one) Blackjack table. You get up and you might as well go home because it will be literally hours before you can get another seat. They have four VP machines that are supposedly 9/6 JOB but they are Class II machines (tied to some hypothetical Bingo game somehow).

Yes, with $5 bets and the quarter ante, the house edge is -5.65% or therebouts in Oklahoma...worse in most of the casinos where the ante starts at $.50 and is progressive.

Smokes are at least $10 a carton cheaper than off-reservation. Gas is usually $.05 to $.10 a gallon cheaper. It's 2 hours closer to home than Kansas City where the better non-ante games are located. About the same distance are a couple of Indian casinos north of Topeka that have no ante games. One of them (Sac & Fox) has a 6-deck hand shuffled game with the dealer standing on soft- 17. House Edge is something like -.42%.

But, to stay in Northern Topeka, you have to consider gasoline to get there and back, tolls on the turnpike there and back, food and a place to sleep. It's just almost too far for the wife and I to drive up, play all day and drive back in the same day without staying overnight. We ain't youngsters like we used to be <smile> With those expences considered, and figuring in the amount of time it would take to pay the Oklahoma casino a quarter a hand...I can play and pay antes for somewhere around 10 to 14 hours for the same amount of money it would take to make an overnight trip to the northern casinos.

"Yes" ZG....it's a sucker game and I'm fully aware of it.

As for counting, I have stated it before. I can count, have not perfected the skill, and have not employed it much at tables (other than those double deck games dealt face up in Vegas). My main holdback is that I quite simply do not have the bankroll to finance the betting spreads needed to take full advantage of the skill-set. Why develop it if I can't use it? I think I would be more intelligently invested were I to concentrate on playing BJ tournaments. But, same problem....distance from Wichita to anywhere tournaments are held.

 

[zengrifter]

Great streak Mike keep it up, hope it last. On your 5th consecutive winning trip you managed to still risk only a c-note and turned it into a 265.00.The point being that after four previous back to back wins you still have enough discipline to hold your betting limits down, knowing that that old monster math is due to show his ugly head. Disipline in gambling is a key element of any game strategy.

Don't encourage him! THE DISCIPLINE IS NOT TO PLAY! zg