Blackjack not a taxable transaction!

#21
Kasi said:
Keep in mind, whether I declare gambling winnings, if any, on my taxes or not, whether I have ever played for real money or not, whether I have won a ton of money or none at all, as an AP or playing for fun, no matter how it sounds to you, doesn't change the tax laws one iota.

And I wouldn't publicly admit to the fact that just because you receive no W2, I assume you mean W2-G, you don't pay taxes on your winnings.

Not what I would call an "AP" move :)
So you still think its worth while to file taxes ?

http://www.taxabletalk.com/posts/1125006725.shtml (Archive copy)

Taxes and Online Gambling, Part 3: Records and Professionalism
In this article, part 3 of probably 5 parts, I examine recordkeeping and professional status for online gamblers. Unfortunately, a lot of this material is, frankly, boring. But it's necessary. Some of the material in this article is based on an article I wrote for Chuck Humphrey's excellent website, http://www.gambling-law-us.com/. The original article can be found here.

First, let's examine the situation for the casual (or non-professional) gambler. The Tax Code requires gamblers to record their wins and losses by session. You take all of your winning sessions for the year, add them together, and you come up with a result. Let's assume that's $12,000.00. Then you take all your losing sessions, add those up, and come up with a second number. Let's further assume that's $10,000.00. However, you cannot net those two numbers! The wins go as part of Other Income (line 21) while the losses are an itemizable deduction (Schedule A) not subject to the 2% AGI limitation on itemized deductions.

Well, you're probably thinking that there's no particular difference between netting and this result. That's wrong, for three reasons. First, if you don't itemize your deductions (because you don't have enough deductions to itemize) you lose out on your gambling losses. In such a situation your gambling losses are presumed to be part of your standard deduction. Second, many items on the tax return are tied to Adjusted Gross Income (AGI). The prescribed method for handling gambling income and losses increases AGI (even if the taxable income remains unchanged). This can limit some taxpayers' other deductions, including medical and miscellaneous itemized deductions. Finally, gambling losses can, in certain circumstances, trigger the dreaded Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT).

So you ask, why not declare myself a "professional" gambler. A few years ago that would not have been possible. Luckily a gambler named Robert P. Groetzinger fought the IRS on this issue. In a case that made it to the Supreme Court, the court held that you can legally be a professional gambler. The most relevant portion of the opinion reads:

...[W]e conclude that if one's gambling activity is pursued full time, in good faith, and with regularity, to the production of income for a livelihood, and is not a mere hobby, it is a trade or business within the meaning of the statutes with which we are here concerned. Respondent [480 U.S. 23, 36] Groetzinger satisfied that test in 1978. Constant and largescale effort on his part was made. Skill was required and was applied. He did what he did for a livelihood, though with a less-than-successful result. This was not a hobby or a passing fancy or an occasional bet for amusement. [Commissioner v. Groetzinger, 480 U.S. 23 (1987)]


There are some caveats to this. Note the usage of full time, with regularity, and production of income for a livelihood. If you gamble in this manner, you can classify yourself as a professional. And, yes, you can be a professional gambler and lose.

Professional gamblers have a business. They file their gambling results on Schedule C. Their wins and losses are netted, they may deduct necessary and reasonable expenses (i.e. mileage and travel, computer ISP, books and other training materials, etc.). However, they are subject to self-employment tax (Schedule SE). That tax (equivalent to Social Security and Medicare) is 15.3% of the first $90,000 of income (2005 limits) and 2.9% thereafter. You do get to deduct half of your self-employment tax as an adjustment to income on line 30 of Form 1040. For some gamblers, it's cheaper (for taxes) to be an amateur than a professional. Talk to a professional tax advisor before making the decision to become a professional gambler. There are several other caveats and limitations.

Finally, the IRS has fought some taxpayers who have declared themselves professionals. The IRS has been relying on the literal wording of the Groetzinger decision; that a professional must be a "full time" gambler. They have rejected that status for some gamblers who maintain other businesses. None of these cases have been decided in Tax Court (yet). I think this is a losing position for the IRS. Consider a hypothetical professional gambler, John Smith. Mr. Smith plays in only the biggest poker tournaments of the year. The remainder of the year he and his wife operate a successful jewelry store. He files two Schedule C's on his return. Is he a professional gambler?

Of course he is, assuming that his goal is to earn income from gambling—"...[the] production of income for a livelihood...." There are many individuals who file multiple Schedule C's. I believe that the IRS's position is wrong. However, be forewarned. If you're in this situation the IRS may fight you.

In conclusion, becoming a professional gambler should be decided on the basis of your skill (in gambling), not your tax situation. However, you must keep your tax situation in mind.

In part 4 (coming next week), I'll take a look at some tax filing requirements for gamblers. The joy of estimated taxes, state taxes, and how some states treat (or mistreat) gamblers. I'll also look at some legal realities of online gambling.
Related Posts (on one page):

Taxes and Online Gambling, Part 5: Poker Tournaments and Banking Issues
Taxes and Online Gambling, Part 4: States, Filings, and Legalities
Taxes and Online Gambling, Part 3: Records and Professionalism
Taxes and Online Gambling, Part 2: Repatriation and Income Recognition
Taxes and Online Gambling, Part I
 

Cardcounter

Well-Known Member
#22
Why not make it one long session?

Why not make your session one long session where you won $2,000 instead of breaking it down into losing and winning sessions. It doesn't matter that you took breaks in between.
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#23
Cardcounter said:
Why not make your session one long session where you won $2,000 instead of breaking it down into losing and winning sessions. It doesn't matter that you took breaks in between.
Tell that to the auditor. :)

Basically, the government is getting a "free roll" every time you gamble. If you win, they get a piece. If you lose, they don't lose anything. By forcing you to separate your winning sessions and your losing sessions they are increasing the probability that they will get a piece of your short-term luck. It's the oldest trick in the book. Just ask System Smitty.

-Sonny-
 
#24
Sonny said:
Tell that to the auditor. :)

Basically, the government is getting a "free roll" every time you gamble. If you win, they get a piece. If you lose, they don't lose anything. By forcing you to separate your winning sessions and your losing sessions they are increasing the probability that they will get a piece of your short-term luck. It's the oldest trick in the book. Just ask System Smitty.

-Sonny-
I believe there's a 3 year aperture where you can subtract losses from winnings, and that will protect most gamblers except for jackpot winners. It certainly won't protect full-time AP's but they can write off mileage, which can't hurt. On the other hand, full-timers probably have to declare comps.

Maybe this explains why casinos are less interested in even-money bets and more into games with big jackpots. It's like sticky bonus hustling.

Hey here's an idea! Maybe the full-timers can arrange certain transfers between themselves, family members, and other accomplices at the no-limit Hold'em table in order to minimize tax liability.

"I can't believe it, Mr. Taxman, I cleared $250K at the table games this year, and on New Year's Eve I sit down for a friendly game of poker, and this monkey took all my wins for the year in one hand! Then he just walked out, nobody even got his name. So my net income for this year was zero."
 

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#25
It's horrible. (for non-pros)

First, I'm pretty sure there's no loss carryforward past the year. Capital gains (losses) have that... not gambling.

But it's the per session thing that's the killer. The IRS can be pretty strict about how it defines a session. You can't net for the whole year. You can't even net on a per trip basis.

I looked at a year-end report in my personal finance software. Just looking at my bank account deposits/withdrawals (one deposit/withdrawal cycle covers an average of two trips).... I'd still be declaring over $100k in "gambling income" for the year, and then also declaring around $80k in deductions.

If I were to file on a truly accurate, per-session basis, the income and deduction numbers would be much much higher.

But even with that, the gambling just blew my adjusted gross income out of the water. The most notable thing to me (if I'm reading this right) is that I would no longer be able to make a contribution to my IRA for the year. Because all of the sudden the IRS thinks I'm rich.

But please let me emphasize that I'm not saying that I'm not filing my taxes accurately this April. I'm just saying it sucks.
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
#26
I love it when someone is stupid enough to bray about not paying taxes.
It reminds me of Harry the Cab-driver. Harry was a regular guest on one of the NYC radio shows and often talked of how driving a cab was a great job because it was off the books and he hadn't paid taxes in years.Evidently an IRS bigshot got tired of listening to Harry talk like this while he was driving to work.One morning,Harry was met by several IRS agents while leaving the radio studio.End results- bigtime tax bill and some jailtime.
 

Paradox

Well-Known Member
#27
Hey Cardcounter,

Are you beginning to see why pros don't tip more? After we have involuntarily given up 30+% of our wins to the government and expenses come out, its a wonder we have anything left for ourselves!

If you are very unlucky, you'll have a huge positive flux of variance in Dec, pay taxes on it then loose it in Jan. when you can no longer deduct it. I had a $30K December. This caused me to hit a higher tax bracket and I KNOW it is just positive variance. The tax man doesn't care. I'm bummed, but I'm paying my taxes as I'm required to do.

Welcome to the real world of gambling. Its not as easy or simple as it seems. Staying within the bounds of the law is what being an AP is all about, other wise you are just a cheater in some way.

Don't cheat on your income taxes. Taxes are not fair to anyone who is not in the top 3%. The richest don't pay taxes. We, the middle class and the poor, pay their way.
 

toastblows

Well-Known Member
#28
if you dont work you dont have to pay taxes, so in theory the poorest of the poor pay the least tax :cool2: .....but i understand what you mean, id rather be warren buffet than joe street bum.
 

21forme

Well-Known Member
#29
Paradox said:
If you are very unlucky, you'll have a huge positive flux of variance in Dec, pay taxes on it then loose it in Jan. when you can no longer deduct it. I had a $30K December. This caused me to hit a higher tax bracket and I KNOW it is just positive variance. The tax man doesn't care. I'm bummed, but I'm paying my taxes as I'm required to do.

Taxes are not fair to anyone who is not in the top 3%. The richest don't pay taxes. We, the middle class and the poor, pay their way.
Your first paragraph implies a common misconception. Being in a higher tax bracket only taxes income above that bracket threshold at the higher rate. Your income below that level is taxed at the same rate it always has been.

Regarding the rich paying taxes, that changed 20+ years ago when the AMT was introduced. Of course, that now affects middle class people, too, because Congress was too stupid to index it with inflation (just like they were too dumb to index the age of Medicare eligibility with life expectancy - when LBJ introduced Medicare at age 65, avg. life expectancy was 64.)
 
#30
The amount of taxes you would be paying would not make it worth while playing. Pick your rate:

2007 Federal Tax Rate Schedules

Note: These tax rate schedules are provided so that you can compute your federal estimated income tax for 2007. To compute your actual income tax, please see the instructions for 2007 Form 1040, 1040A, or 1040EZ as appropriate when they are available.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Schedule X — Single
If taxable income is over-- But not over-- The tax is:
$0 $7,825 10% of the amount over $0
$7,825 $31,850 $782.50 plus 15% of the amount over 7,825
$31,850 $77,100 $4,386.25 plus 25% of the amount over 31,850
$77,100 $160,850 $15,698.75 plus 28% of the amount over 77,100
$160,850 $349,700 $39,148.75 plus 33% of the amount over 160,850
$349,700 no limit $101,469.25 plus 35% of the amount over 349,700



Schedule Y-1 — Married Filing Jointly or Qualifying Widow(er)
If taxable income is over-- But not over-- The tax is:
$0 $15,650 10% of the amount over $0
$15,650 $63,700 $1,565.00 plus 15% of the amount over 15,650
$63,700 $128,500 $8,772.50 plus 25% of the amount over 63,700
$128,500 $195,850 $24,972.50 plus 28% of the amount over 128,500
$195,850 $349,700 $43,830.50 plus 33% of the amount over 195,850
$349,700 no limit $94,601.00 plus 35% of the amount over 349,700



Schedule Y-2 — Married Filing Separately

If taxable income is over-- But not over-- The tax is:
$0 $7,825 10% of the amount over $0
$7,825 $31,850 $782.50 plus 15% of the amount over 7,825
$31,850 $64,250 $4,386.25 plus 25% of the amount over 31,850
$64,250 $97,925 $12,486.25 plus 28% of the amount over 64,250
$97,925 $174,850 $21,915.25 plus 33% of the amount over 97,925
$174,850 no limit $47,300.50 plus 35% of the amount over 174,850



Schedule Z — Head of Household

If taxable income is over-- But not over-- The tax is:
$0 $11,200 10% of the amount over $0
$11,200 $42,650 $1,120.00 plus 15% of the amount over 11,200
$42,650 $110,100 $5,837.50 plus 25% of the amount over 42,650
$110,100 $178,350 $22,700.00 plus 28% of the amount over 110,100
$178,350 $349,700 $41,810.00 plus 33% of the amount over 178,350
$349,700 no limit $98,355.50 plus 35% of the amount over 349,700


After picking your bracket start figuring in Social Security 15.5%. Medicare 2.9 per cent. Plus state tax. State tax will be a whole different issue. Since you will be traveling all over the US playing blackjack. This triggers the situation of being a citizen of one state while maybe earning your money in another state. Multiple income tax returns. So do all AP players pay Income Tax on their winnings. I would BET I could not find 1 person on this board other then (KEN SMITH) who has payed income tax on their winnings without being issued a W2. So lets all get out of fantasyland and start telling the truth. If anybody was paying taxes on their BJ winnings (without a W2 issued) they would have know all of this. So let the truth set you free. It doesn't matter what you say on a message board. I don't think the IRS is watching us. That's one thing about the internet YOU CAN BE WHO YOU WANT TO BE, and I can see a lot of B- - -. :laugh:
 
#31
21forme said:
Your first paragraph implies a common misconception. Being in a higher tax bracket only taxes income above that bracket threshold at the higher rate. Your income below that level is taxed at the same rate it always has been.

Regarding the rich paying taxes, that changed 20+ years ago when the AMT was introduced. Of course, that now affects middle class people, too, because Congress was too stupid to index it with inflation (just like they were too dumb to index the age of Medicare eligibility with life expectancy - when LBJ introduced Medicare at age 65, avg. life expectancy was 64.)
A devil's advocate would say "Well maybe that's why the life expectancy is longer now, because of Medicare."

What Paradox may be talking about is eligibility for AMT and also ineligibility for certain deductions that kick in at a threshold, unlike tax brackets which give an exponential curve.
 
#33
Please Walk Me Thru The Basics

I am new to the concept of considering black jack winnings from a casino as income. I would appreciate a simple outline that focuses on all possible aspects of reporting, by the casino, banks, or anyone else. I am aware that I am responsible for reporting my blackjack winnings as income.

For example, if I play BJ at a casino, after having presented my player's card to the dealer, and I win 1000K, 2500K, 5000K, 10,000K or 18,000K, at what point does the casino report these winnings to the feds. When I cash out at the table? When I exchange chips for cash at the cage? Is there a form that I sign, or is it automatic? Is there a dollar limit that initiates this reporting? Is the dollar limit considered for a certain time period, i.e. 24 hours? When I take my cash to the bank, are they doing any reporting? When the casino generates my win/loss statement at the end of the year, is it reported to the feds, or just for my info?

All help is much appreciated.
 
#34
djsull said:
I am new to the concept of considering black jack winnings from a casino as income. I would appreciate a simple outline that focuses on all possible aspects of reporting, by the casino, banks, or anyone else. I am aware that I am responsible for reporting my blackjack winnings as income.

For example, if I play BJ at a casino, after having presented my player's card to the dealer, and I win 1000K, 2500K, 5000K, 10,000K or 18,000K, at what point does the casino report these winnings to the feds. When I cash out at the table? When I exchange chips for cash at the cage? Is there a form that I sign, or is it automatic? Is there a dollar limit that initiates this reporting? Is the dollar limit considered for a certain time period, i.e. 24 hours? When I take my cash to the bank, are they doing any reporting? When the casino generates my win/loss statement at the end of the year, is it reported to the feds, or just for my info?



All help is much appreciated.
Are you for real or are you the simple of the mind ? Have you ever played blackjack ?
 
#35
Am I Simple Minded? What a Lovely Welcome!

How about an answer to my series of questions?

In answer to yours, yes, I do play blackjack. I've played in casinos for just over 21 years. I am educated about the game, but not about the ins and outs of reporting regarding tax compliance.

As always, thanks for your consideration.
 
#36
djsull said:
How about an answer to my series of questions?

In answer to yours, yes, I do play blackjack. I've played in casinos for just over 21 years. I am educated about the game, but not about the ins and outs of reporting regarding tax compliance.

As always, thanks for your consideration.

Just like I thought a whole thread about taxes and you ask this question. How about reading the whole thread from post 1 to the end. That should answer your question. Start at the very first post easy enough. Very simple !
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
#37
djsull said:
How about an answer to my series of questions?

In answer to yours, yes, I do play blackjack. I've played in casinos for just over 21 years. I am educated about the game, but not about the ins and outs of reporting regarding tax compliance.

As always, thanks for your consideration.

If you've been playing for 21 years,just keep on doing what you've been doing.I assume it's been working.
 
#39
Reading of the Tax Thread

I read the entire thread, from post one to the end. I didn't find complete answers to all of my inquiries. So, I asked a clear, thorough series of questions, which could have been answered in less time that it's taken to go back and forth...simple!

Canceler, thank you for the link to an addt'l thread about taxes. I'll take a look.

I took a look...and that thread, along with this thread, are mostly talking about methods of filing, employment designations, etc. In other words, those things that are the burden of the tax payor. If you read my original post, I'm looking for info regarding reporting by third parties, i.e. casinos & banks. I want to know all the different ways that someone else is telling the feds that I've won a big pile of money.

Thanks.
 
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