'burn cards' & a couple of other questions

[blackjill]

Hello all,

I've been following this forum for about a month or so but so far I haven't actively participated in discussions. I do have one question (and do forgive me if it's been discussed before)--what do you do with the 'burn cards' that dealers discard at the beginning of a new shoe as well as when rotating tables? Sometimes I'll ask the dealer to show it to me but I feel really uneasy about asking it every single time. Can you just ignore it?
Sorry if this is a dumb questions but hey aren't we here to learn?
As for myself, I've picked up the blackjack 'bug' only recently and still find the prospect of free drinks too darn tempting. Hopefully on my next trip I'll be able to contain myself and stay sober for a couple of hours and try out the counting thing. Also, is it possible to 'wong' frequently without getting any 'heat' from the pit? See, I was able to pick up some lingo while perusing your posts. :grin: I mean, whenever I've played BJ I've rarely seen people not playing every single hand.
Also, do you HAVE to stick to the basic strategy EVERY single time? I've read a bunch of books about BJ and they're all adamant about it. I usually stick to it 99% of the time but I always seem to be stuck with people who just 'have a feeling there's a big card coming' and stay on 15 or 16 against a dealer's 10. Those same people hit a 13 against a dealer's 6 and various other things that I would never do myself. It does get frustrating when you sit with people who seemingly don't know what they're doing. Another possibly stupid question--is it possible to 'mess up the cards' by doing things like that? I know it sounds silly but when I was playing at that-I guess you could call it-floppy table I've been dealt the crappiest cards ever and the dealer was pulling an unusual amount of 20s and 21s. Anyhow, should I steer clear of such tables?
Your input for any of the issues mentioned above would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Tarzan]

Atlantic City Dealers

In Atlantic City about 80% of the time the dealer shows the burn cards automatically...if they don't you simply ask to see it and they will show it and not make a big deal of it. You NEED to see every one of those burn cards, especially if they are changing shifts and have some whacky thing where the table trades out dealers 3 times in five minutes!(or also if they hate you and like trading out dealers a lot on you).

Something odd happened to me today though. I was playing heads up and the dealer had a 7 upcard and I banged a blackjack. He paid me and then never flipped his down card over, simply turning the up card down and placing both in the discard rack! I stopped and said,"Say, you never flipped your card over and just shoved it in the discard rack...what was it?" "You got paid, didn't you? I've never had a player hold things up on a hand he got paid on! Are you tracking the cards or something?"....."Nope... Just curious is all!", I said..."Could you for my curiousities sake show me the top two cards in the discard rack?"(I had not placed another bet out yet).-------------Ahhhh, a 2 with that 7......

I'm not sure about other places but for the most part, Atlantic City dealers are good about just automatically showing the burn cards without having to ask each time to see it.

 

[LeonShuffle]

If you ask a dealer once, he/she will usually show it every time after that. However, it's not that big of a deal. If you don't see it, just consider it another card behind the cut card. If it's an 8 deck shoe, it'll worsen your penetration by about a quarter of 1%.

And don't worry about how others play. Over the long run, bad plays will help you just as much as hurt you, however it may seem.

 

[Canceler]

Cool name, blackjill, I like it!

Burn cards: I hate to disagree with Tarzan, but you can just ignore the burn card. Treat it like one of those cards behind the cut card that you never get to see.

Basic strategy: Yes, you should follow basic strategy. The others at the table who don't are only hurting themselves, and this will have no effect on you.

"Messing up the cards" presumes that the cards are in some meaningful order to begin with. They're not, so don't worry about that.

Bad tables: Changing tables might help, or it might not. Staying at the same table might be better, or it might not. This is another concept you can just forget about.

 

[EasyRhino]

"one question," huh?

- If you're counting, it would be nice to see the burn card, but as mentioned, missing a card or two out of a shoe isn't a big deal. So if you're counting, and you think you're attracting attention, don't bother. Just treat the card as neutral, and figure that it will basically hurt your penetration slightly (just like cards after the cut card that you never see).

If you are not counting, then do whatever the hell you want, harangue the dealer about the burn card, have fun with it.

- Especially at lower betting levels (red-green), you can wong like a maniac. The main threat to the pit would be annoyance if they keep trying to update you're rating slip while you're hopping in and out. Which isn't too big a deal.

- Basic strategy, unless you're varying your play with index plays based on the count, then yes, follow basic strategy every time. Indices are not necessary for basic card counting (but highly recommended in the medium term).

How would you rate your basic strategy skills? Is there ever any doubt regarding obscure plays like splitting 9,9 v 7?

The people "who have feelings" about their stiffs v a 10 are bad at blackjack, and you should not follow their advice.

- I don't know about floppy tables, but I know about ploppy tables. Don't worry about messing up The Sacred Flow of the cards, you're just as likely to help as hurt.

- Don't worry about hot dealers. Actually, if the dealer is pulling multihand 21s out of his/her ass, then there is a good chance that a lot of small cards are being played, thus improving the count. We all get caught by hot dealers, and it sucks, but it's just the way it is.

 

[ihate17]

Thank you Rhino

As self appointed chief muckity muck of The Church Of The Holy Sacred Flow Of The All Knowing Cards, I must recognize Rhino for properly capitalizing The Sacred Flow in his response.

Seriously though, at some point in time you might be able to drink some and still count properly, but that will come only with time when the whole thing becomes very natural for you. In the meantime, practice at home. If hitting a casino try counting on their lower limit tables. Eventually you will come to a point where you can count, do indice plays, talk to the pit and take a one second glance at the cards on the table to adjust your count, and never miss a step.

ihate17

 

[blackjill]

@ all
Guys/gals thanks for your input
much obliged

@ Tarzan
I do go to AC--Borgata mainly. The dealers do not show burn cards most of the time (at least not @ my table).

@ Canceler
I'm glad you liked my name. I was feeling a bit uninspired. I did want to make sure people know I'm a girl though.

@ EasyRhino
I do tend to be long winded so I was like what the heck let me ask away.
Did I really write 'floppy' tables? :joker:--that's funny. I guess I'm not well versed in BJ lingo after all. :grin:
I would say I'm pretty good @ basic strategy; I do have to think about doubling down on certain soft hands (I know it's important!!) but that's pretty much it.

I've been using one of those free resource card counting links and I have to admit it's been pretty useful. I get the count right most of the time. I've learned to ignore 7,8,9 and I often pair up hi/low cards so they cancel each other out. Also, if there are a lot of high cards coming I'll bunch them together. For example the count is -3 and four 10 value cards are dealt, I will automatically up the count to -7 (don't need to do -4,-5,-6)--and vice versa. Hopefully that's a good sign. Will try to put it to test soon.

 

[weavin42]

If you are worried that having a few drinks might screw up your ability to count/bet properly, just practice that at home to. There is nothing like getting drunk will practicing card counting and reading Modern Drunkard Magazine from the comfort of your own home.

Ok, in all seriousness...welcome to the forums. There is some really good info here with some really great people. Sorry, I didn't answer any of your questions but I think everyone else did a pretty good job with that, if you have any more feel free to ask.

 

[Kasi]

As self appointed chief muckity muck of The Church Of The Holy Sacred Flow Of The All Knowing Cards, I must recognize Rhino for properly capitalizing The Sacred Flow in his response.

I forgot all about that lmao.

All hail The Chief Muckity Muck and those who properly capitalize the proper things

Or is Chief Muckity Muck unproperly capitalized? :grin:

 

[Tarzan]

I was at Borgata yesterday and...

I don't frequent Borgata as much as the boarkwalk stretch of casinos because you have to make a separate trip to get there but I was there yesterday as my first stop, playing at the group of low stakes tables ($5,$10,$15 min.) and I'm about sure I did have to ask the guy to show the burn cards, which both dealers did once they were asked. I did sort of horribly, making about a huge $55 ahead in several shoes and bailed to the boardwalk casinos from there after about an hour or so. Elsewhere I often see some of the same dealers on a daily basis and they automatically show all the burn cards.
You're right about not seeing the burn cards and viewing it as "less pen"....except for one thing--me personally. It drives me mental NOT to see every burn card and take it into account. If they do not show the burn card and simply shove it in the discard rack I will stop and speak up and request to see it...."Just curious." I will always say. I have to see each and every one though or it drives me mental to the point of being willing to walk off the table over it. Silly, but that's just me.

 

[EasyRhino]

I would say I'm pretty good @ basic strategy; I do have to think about doubling down on certain soft hands (I know it's important!!) but that's pretty much it.

If you can always make the right play, then having to think about it for a sec isn't so bad. But if you're ever wrong on knowing the basic strategy, then keep practicing at it. The possible advantages from counting are so small that the "leakage" from having BS off can be very significant.

 

[Sonny]

All hail The Chief Muckity Muck and those who properly capitalize the proper things

Or is Chief Muckity Muck unproperly capitalized? :grin:

I think it should be lower case since "flow" players are always undercapitalized. :grin:

-Sonny-

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I don't frequent Borgata as much as the boarkwalk stretch of casinos because you have to make a separate trip to get there but I was there yesterday as my first stop, playing at the group of low stakes tables ($5,$10,$15 min.) and I'm about sure I did have to ask the guy to show the burn cards, which both dealers did once they were asked. I did sort of horribly, making about a huge $55 ahead in several shoes and bailed to the boardwalk casinos from there after about an hour or so. Elsewhere I often see some of the same dealers on a daily basis and they automatically show all the burn cards.
You're right about not seeing the burn cards and viewing it as "less pen"....except for one thing--me personally. It drives me mental NOT to see every burn card and take it into account. If they do not show the burn card and simply shove it in the discard rack I will stop and speak up and request to see it...."Just curious." I will always say. I have to see each and every one though or it drives me mental to the point of being willing to walk off the table over it. Silly, but that's just me.

What, you've never Wonged into a table with a full deck dealt out, unseen, and a zoo of low cards on the felt? I'd rather do that than play from the shuffle. It works just fine as long as you remember to add all the unseen cards into your true count divisor. This is a fun way to play AC as you zoom around the pits, looking for any advantage you can find.

 

[sagefr0g]

What, you've never Wonged into a table with a full deck dealt out, unseen, and a zoo of low cards on the felt? I'd rather do that than play from the shuffle. It works just fine as long as you remember to add all the unseen cards into your true count divisor. This is a fun way to play AC as you zoom around the pits, looking for any advantage you can find.

that seems a really neat gimmick as part of one's arsenal of tricks. especially fits in with the approach i've been working on.
so mr Monkey i'm curious about your take on the ethical aspect of wonging if you'd be so kind to comment sir.
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showpost.php?p=60949&postcount=16

 

[ihate17]

we hail The Flow and not the muck

I forgot all about that lmao.

All hail The Chief Muckity Muck and those who properly capitalize the proper things

Or is Chief Muckity Muck unproperly capitalized? :grin:

No one cares for muck anyway, so why capitilize it.

As far seeing all the burn cards goes: It depends on the casino. Many will not show you the card. If they already suspect you of counting, they might take your request to see it as confirmation that you are tracking the cards.
If asking to see it is a custom of players at this casino, then go for it. If not, just consider it a card behind the cut card.

Unless it is an unusual situation, you will often have the first card burned and then another card burned if a new dealer comes in. 2 cards out of 312 in a 6 deck shoe, not a significant number at all and not worth bringing possible attention to yourself.

Now if you play at somewhere like the Philippines where they used to burn a card between each round, it can totally kill any pen. Playing heads up with 1.5 cut off, will add up to approx an additional 2/3 of a deck burned!

ihate17