Card Counting Etiquette

[shadroch]

I generally would leave. There is this one really annoying guy in downtown Vegas that used to bump heads with me. After ignoring my hints that he should leave, I pointed out to the other two players that whenever this guy raises his bets, he gets good cards. I then suggested they rasie their bets when he does. When the counter got a BJ with a large bet out, the table all remarked on it. Meanwhile I flat bet the table minimum.
He hasn't sat at my table for several years now, but gives me the stink-eye whenever we cross paths.

 

[WestCoast21]

I'm always a little worried about offending another counter because I think he might rat me out when I leave the table or casino. The last thing I need is someone to tell my regular dealers that I'm card counting. I probably hit the best Vegas spots a little more often than I should, so I try to keep everyone happy (other AP's and dealers) for longevity. I've had dealers ask if I'm a pro player before and it gets really awkward.

A few times I've seen a group of 3 guys or so all counting on the same table. They're obviously all there together and they spread their bets in unison. I'm always shocked when they don't get booted. Maybe I'm too paranoid.

 

[Renzey]

I was wondering if anyone here feels there is a certain etiquette in the card counting world when you find yourself at a table with another card counter?

I dunno! All the posts subsequent to this one confound me. I've played in Vegas, AC, Canada, Tunica, Foxwoods, Puerto Rico and locally for thousands of hours, and the other counters I've detected I can still count on two hands! Could that many possibly have slipped by me. I'd say it doesn't even happen once a year.

 

[Meistro]

Unless they all had really good cover I'd imagine not. I mean, it seems easy as pie to detect a counter, just look at how they bet and how they play hands like 16, 12 v 4, 11vs10, 10vs9, 9vs2, etc.

 

[kewljason]

I dunno! All the posts subsequent to this one confound me. I've played in Vegas, AC, Canada, Tunica, Foxwoods, Puerto Rico and locally for thousands of hours, and the other counters I've detected I can still count on two hands! Could that many possibly have slipped by me. I'd say it doesn't even happen once a year.

I certainly didn't mean to imply that it happens often to me, although it is more than once a year. I would guess maybe 3-4 times a year in 1200+ hours a year that I play.

Worse case for me was over the winter or early spring of this year. Was playing 4 deck game at Trop in AC. It was the best game that AC had seen in my 6 years of playing, but didn't last long. Was playing with 2 other players all betting quarters. Count goes up, next hand all three of us wager $100. Dealer calls checks play. Pit looks over. I looked at other two guys and almost laughed. I left after that hand. I wanted to play this game for as long as it lasted, which turned out to be only a few more weeks. Observed one other counter a week later at the same game, so this game was no doubt attracting local counters. Besides these three, I have only encounted 3 other counters in 6 years of AC play that I am aware of. One I see on a regular basis, but he only spreads 1-2 wonging out of negative counts, so I can actually play with him without any additional risk.

 

[creeping panther]

Kewl

The original poster wasn't speaking of an associate, CP, he was asking what to do when he sits at a table that already has a counter. For myself it isn't a matter of a Brotherhood or even courtesy for that matter. It's a matter of playing longevity. Sitting at a table with another counter raising bets in tandem is NOT a favorable situation for me and I would extract myself from that situation as quickly as possible similar to if I was in a situation where I was attracting heat. I want to keep playing these favorable stores over and over. If I have to remove a favorable location from my rotation for even a short time, it has in effect cost me money. Bottom line. It just isn't a pissing contest that I need to win.

Correct, but it has nothing to do with manners, or congeniality, for you it is something other. For another it may be an entirely different situation.

CP

 

[creeping panther]

Shad

I generally would leave. There is this one really annoying guy in downtown Vegas that used to bump heads with me. After ignoring my hints that he should leave, I pointed out to the other two players that whenever this guy raises his bets, he gets good cards. I then suggested they rasie their bets when he does. When the counter got a BJ with a large bet out, the table all remarked on it. Meanwhile I flat bet the table minimum.
He hasn't sat at my table for several years now, but gives me the stink-eye whenever we cross paths.

A fine example of the fact that there is no brotherhood with non-associates.

You did your thing, he did his.

CP

 

[21forme]

Worse case for me was over the winter or early spring of this year. Was playing 4 deck game at Trop in AC. It was the best game that AC had seen in my 6 years of playing, but didn't last long.

That was pretty funny. First time I saw that game, I noted at least 2 counters at each of the 4 tables and another one or two back-counting them :laugh:

 

[johndoe]

I generally avoid playing with other counters, and am annoyed when they join me at a table, mostly for the same reasons kewljason outlined. There's no reason to add that kind of risk. Especially as I have no way of knowing how much heat that guy has, and don't want the attention.

If I do notice I'm playing with a counter (rare), and he was there first, I'll leave when the count heads south, or at the end of the shoe. I'd expect him to do the same. There are plenty of games around.

For situations where there's only a small number of tables or I want to remain at the table for some reason, and the other AP is friendly/cool/pleasant, I'll usually extend the courtesy of not spreading to two hands (unless he does).

 

[WestCoast21]

When I first started playing I rarely ever came across another counter. Nowadays I see them all the time. Nearly every trip I make to Vegas I come across at least one, and I hit Vegas about once a week.

It might be that I'm playing on the very best games in Vegas and therefore a lot of counters will flock to the same games. Usually I'll just find another table, but the best places only have so many tables!

Usually when I come across another counter they're pretty cool about it and friendly. Sometimes they try to hang out with me, but I'm afraid that if they have heat they'll bring it my way. I'd say that one of the biggest giveaways that I'm a professional player is that I'm almost always alone. Maybe I should hire someone for minimum wage to hang out with me while I play? Ha ha! :laugh:

 

[MAZ]

Kewl Jason is correct.

The common courtesy is to leave if you are the second card Counter to arrive
at that table, even if you are betting several times what the other player is.

This is really not debatable.

This is bullsh*t. First off I agree with Renzey that I very rarely run into anything resembling another counter or ap at the tables unless its planned and I know them. But if its a good game and I do suspect another player to be an ap that I do not know, I want him off my table regardless of when I showed up. I do not defer my money making opportunities to anyone, period. I will agree that I do not want any negative attention brought upon myself, but I don't care one lick if its brought upon the other. And thats just the way it is. This common courtesy noise is nonsense. Its survival of the fittest, and if can get you the hell away from my good game, you damn well know thats whats going to happen. Its business, and I'm not in business to make unknown counters thrive. No apologies, if I am strong enough a player to remove another from my situation then thats what happens, and vice versa if they can remove me. But good luck with that.

 

[WestCoast21]

This is bullsh*t. First off I agree with Renzey that I very rarely run into anything resembling another counter or ap at the tables unless its planned and I know them. But if its a good game and I do suspect another player to be an ap that I do not know, I want him off my table regardless of when I showed up. I do not defer my money making opportunities to anyone, period. I will agree that I do not want any negative attention brought upon myself, but I don't care one lick if its brought upon the other. And thats just the way it is. This common courtesy noise is nonsense. Its survival of the fittest, and if can get you the hell away from my good game, you damn well know thats whats going to happen. Its business, and I'm not in business to make unknown counters thrive. No apologies, if I am strong enough a player to remove another from my situation then thats what happens, and vice versa if they can remove me. But good luck with that.

I would think with such an aggressive attitude you might inspire other counters to want to expose you to the casino. Sort of a payback for taking their table.

I personally have a certain level of respect for other good counters. It can be a lonely lifestyle and it's rare a person can relate to what I do for a living, so I appreciate those that play as I do. I've heard that pro players are known for being A**holes. I'd like to be the anomaly then.

I assume you don't believe in karma? I also assume you don't have a wife or kids?

 

[kewljason]

I would think with such an aggressive attitude you might inspire other counters to want to expose you to the casino. Sort of a payback for taking their table.

I personally have a certain level of respect for other good counters. It can be a lonely lifestyle and it's rare a person can relate to what I do for a living, so I appreciate those that play as I do. I've heard that pro players are known for being A**holes. I'd like to be the anomaly then.

I assume you don't believe in karma? I also assume you don't have a wife or kids?

Just ignore him. He is just one of the unpleasant people that you encounter throughout life. He is without a doubt the most repugnant and hostile person I have encountered on this site. If you read through some of his posts, you will notice an argumentative, disagreeable, combative theme surfacing time and time again.

 

[MAZ]

Just ignore him. He is just one of the unpleasant people that you encounter throughout life. He is without a doubt the most repugnant and hostile person I have encountered on this site. If you read through some of his posts, you will notice an argumentative, disagreeable, combative theme surfacing time and time again.

Oh I'm sorry kj if my opinion on the topic is different than yours. I'm sure my opinion on this topic as unpleasant and repugnant as it may be has no place in this forum. I must try better to conform to the cookie cutter answers that will give a more warm and fuzzy feeling, and will be more agreeable to you. I apologize if how I handle my business is not as important and does not warrant a reply to a question asked here. It was my mistake in thinking it was a subjective question, I didn't know there was a right and a wrong answer.

 

[WestCoast21]

Just ignore him. He is just one of the unpleasant people that you encounter throughout life. He is without a doubt the most repugnant and hostile person I have encountered on this site. If you read through some of his posts, you will notice an argumentative, disagreeable, combative theme surfacing time and time again.

I see what you're saying. Even after the most punishing losing sessions I try to keep a smile on my face and laugh it off. Life's too short, and with a negative attitude it's probably even shorter.

So what does it mean to be an Executive Member or a Senior Member? Sorry, I'm new here.

 

[MAZ]

I assume you don't believe in karma? I also assume you don't have a wife or kids?

No I don't believe in karma, I believe its just a mysterious excuse for weakness, and lack of accountability. And why would you assume I don't have a wife or kids. That would be all the more reason to play aggessively and give no ground on the games that will make your living. I would not take the food out of my familiy's mouth to pacify a strangers perceived right to play over mine.

 

[kewljason]

I see what you're saying. Even after the most punishing losing sessions I try to keep a smile on my face and laugh it off. Life's too short, and with a negative attitude it's probably even shorter.

So what does it mean to be an Executive Member or a Senior Member? Sorry, I'm new here.

Just means that some of us have too much time on our hands and are spending too much time posting here. :laugh: It isn't a refection on what anyone knows or doesn't know. 100 post=senior, 500=exec

 

[kewljason]

Oh I'm sorry kj if my opinion on the topic is different than yours. I'm sure my opinion on this topic as unpleasant and repugnant as it may be has no place in this forum. I must try better to conform to the cookie cutter answers that will give a more warm and fuzzy feeling, and will be more agreeable to you. I apologize if how I handle my business is not as important and does not warrant a reply to a question asked here. It was my mistake in thinking it was a subjective question, I didn't know there was a right and a wrong answer.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say your opinion has no place in this forum. (that's not my call to make) Nor did I suggest your answer was either right or wrong. It is indeed a subjective question. I simply stated my opinion concerning your abrasive attitude and suggested that the poster, a new member, who recognized your negative demeanor in short order, not take it personally and check your posting history. It speaks for itself.

 

[creeping panther]

West Coast

I would think with such an aggressive attitude you might inspire other counters to want to expose you to the casino. Sort of a payback for taking their table.

I personally have a certain level of respect for other good counters. It can be a lonely lifestyle and it's rare a person can relate to what I do for a living, so I appreciate those that play as I do. I've heard that pro players are known for being A**holes. I'd like to be the anomaly then.

I assume you don't believe in karma? I also assume you don't have a wife or kids?

WestCoast, I am personally happy to have you posting here but,,, with 14 posts you have already insulted perhaps the finest and most Bad Ass BJ AP walking the planet today. Congratulations, just hope you never find yourself at his table :yikes:..:laugh:

You say that you are lonely and rarely find a person you can relate to,,well you may have noticed that this site has an annual get together called the "BASH", highly skilled, confident, AP's get together and have a wild time at a casino, of all places:grin:,,,if you are still around when we have the next one it seems you would enjoy the very stellar company, and maybe you can even meet Maz face to face....OUCH!!!:violin: :laugh::laugh:



CP

 

[WestCoast21]

I would love to meet MAZ face to face. I really didn't mean to insult him or anyone else and I do appreciate his comments. I definitely enjoy hearing all sides of any topic. I just wonder sometimes why certain people have such a chip on their shoulder. By nature or circumstance?

We all have different personalities. Mine is mellow and generally pleasant, but some of my best friends are cynical and sarcastic types. I can appreciate all kinds of people, including MAZ. The only kind of person I find annoying is the "screw everyone else, it's all about me" types.

The karma comment was a joke. The wife and kids was just a guess. I know my buddies typically go from hard asses to nice guys once they have kids. I just thought MAZ might need a little love in his life! Apparently I'm mistaken.

Anyways, my apologies to MAZ, and I can't wait to meet some of you at the BASH! Although I'm new on the message board, I make a pretty good living at the tables. I'm not a newbie in counting, just in chat rooms.