Cardcounting - waste of time?

#1
After one year of counting I come to the conclusion that trying to make any money counting is really a big waste of time.

Even if you play perfectly there is a good chance you end up losing money in the long run because when you are down, (and you will be many times) casinos can either ask you to leave, give bad penetration or give a very slow dealer.

Unless you have a large bankroll and are traveling from casino to casino (not giving casino opportunity for countermeasures) I think counting is a big waste of time.
 

iCountNTrack

Well-Known Member
#2
Before making a statement that card counting is a waste of time you should ask yourself:

Is the game i chose to play really "countable"?

What is my expectation value?

What did i do to extend the longevity of the game?

Is my bankroll large enough to allow to have a significant winning rate?

You do need to travel a lot to find good games. Good games are normally not around the corner from your house.

Nobody said it was easy making money counting cards :)
 

mjbballar23

Well-Known Member
#5
bjattack said:
After one year of counting I come to the conclusion that trying to make any money counting is really a big waste of time.

Even if you play perfectly there is a good chance you end up losing money in the long run because when you are down, (and you will be many times) casinos can either ask you to leave, give bad penetration or give a very slow dealer.

Unless you have a large bankroll and are traveling from casino to casino (not giving casino opportunity for countermeasures) I think counting is a big waste of time.
I agree with most of this as well. I wouldnt card count unless i had: 1. decent sized bankroll (7k +), 2. had at least one trustworthy teammate (lower the variance) , 3. FINE FINE games to play. Thankfully i have all 3 so it makes it worth my time.
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#6
different strokes for different folks

it's really a kind of subjective question.
kind of depends on who you are and what your resources are.
far as blackjack being a rewarding experience, just the fact is some people got it like that.

i guess a pro, with or with out a team is able to make significant money by finding and doing what he has to do to attain the position that makes it possible.

a recreational player with resources to weather the swings and enough skill to maintain achievement of ev can make it so he has pretty good odds of coming out ahead or at least not losing more than say he might spend on some other recreational pursuit.

just me, i'm not willing to risk what it would take to make significant money counting cards, but luckily the amount needed to put at risk to have one heck of a good time is acceptable to me.

just for sure i know that it would cost me more doing something else to attain the pleasure i get from beating the casino's at their game.:rolleyes:
 
#7
sagefr0g said:
a recreational player with resources to weather the swings and enough skill to maintain achievement of ev can make it so he has pretty good odds of coming out ahead or at least not losing more than say he might spend on some other recreational pursuit.

just me, i'm not willing to risk what it would take to make significant money counting cards, but luckily the amount needed to put at risk to have one heck of a good time is acceptable to me.

just for sure i know that it would cost me more doing something else to attain the pleasure i get from beating the casino's at their game.:rolleyes:


I don't think recreational players that hits the same place frequently will ever be given playing conditions to achieve positive ev.

And this form of entertainment can be way more costly then a trip to the movie theater.
 

SystemsTrader

Well-Known Member
#8
iCountNTrack said:
"Most" what is the part that is not correct :)
Sorry ICNT my post was directed to bjattack we posted almost at the same time. The point I was trying to make like SageFrog said the questions really kind of subjective. For most people card counting won't be worth it but for a small percentage the game will pay off.
 

ihate17

Well-Known Member
#9
Many many many exceptions

bjattack said:
I don't think recreational players that hits the same place frequently will ever be given playing conditions to achieve positive ev.

And this form of entertainment can be way more costly then a trip to the movie theater.
Been doing this for more than 30 years and though you did not say just what "freqently" is in terms of time, over that period there have been places that offered beatable games, I played in monthly, played for 5 to as many as 15 years before either action was taken against me or the game itself deteriorated.
I still average about 400 hours per year, do travel a bit but still have 3 places currently where my package of act, spread, method of play or whatever has given me longevity for now. I always say, "for now" because things will and always do change at some point in time.

ihate17
 
#10
bjattack said:
I don't think recreational players that hits the same place frequently will ever be given playing conditions to achieve positive ev.

And this form of entertainment can be way more costly then a trip to the movie theater.
The first thing you need is a good game plan- proper counting and betting method. Then you need patience, discipline and good sense.

For someone with these things, your statement is incorrect.
 
#11
Automatic Monkey said:
The first thing you need is a good game plan- proper counting and betting method. Then you need patience, discipline and good sense.

For someone with these things, your statement is incorrect.
You think Casinos just give money away to known counters who are regular customers??? I don't - it would be very bad
for business.

I think casinos try to sucker in counters with what looks like a good game, then subtly or not subtly change the game to unbeatable with a change in penetration while the counter is playing.

And/or uses other methods so a counter is loser.
 
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tfg

Well-Known Member
#12
The one thing I've noticed is that to actually make a living at this or even some serious money, they've found ways to eliminate. Making the dealers call out bets over a certain size, obviously pit bosses checking, the eyes in the sky, probably tracking your playing and whatever else they do. So in order to make good money, you've got to have your **** together with your playing, but even moreso you're demeanor at the table.

But what I've also learned is that I think under a certain amount, they don't really care what you're doing. So the way I look at is, as mainly a recreational player that plays probably at best even blackjack with no disadvantage, the more small amounts you win and leave with are better than those huge wins that draw attention. I'd rather win $200 5x's than $1,000 once. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but it seems that that doesn't draw attention. Another thing is you sit at the table and don't talk at all that draws attention, but if you're social it seems that you're just a normal player.

Also, some kind of bait and switch technique may be what you need to do and you may have to be willing to lose a little in order to win. What I mean by that is, I was at a table with a woman who was just playing really crazy like $100, $200/hand, just randomly. After a few times of doing it, when the dealer told the pit boss that she was playing black chips, he said it was ok and that he didn't need to tell him because it was her, but if someone else did, to tell. So she was then just seen as a normal crazy player. If you could somehow incorporate that, and have the balls to do it, then that might be a good cover. Just my observations.

Me personally, I'm going to just be satisfied with my small consistent winnings using counting techniques and leave it at that until I get my level of playing up. I look at playing cards as just a way to make some exta money. I probably couldn't do it as my only income.
 
#13
bjattack said:
You think Casinos just give money away to known counters who are regular customers??? I don't - it would be very bad
for business.

I think casinos try to sucker in counters with what looks like a good game, then subtly or not subtly change the game to unbeatable with a change in penetration while the counter is playing.

And/or uses other methods so a counter is loser.
Your statement is incorrect. There is no way to change penetration or other game conditions without a skilled counter noticing.

Most casinos have some tolerance for counting, and you can play a local store for a very long time if you are careful and not greedy. This is where the "good sense" comes in. The idea is to make it appear you are not a threat to them by using a variety of approaches they may not recognize as advantage play, hiding wins and simulating losses, and with social engineering.

No one ever said this is easy. It is not easy. And you will sometimes fail. To claim that it is not a profitable form of AP is false.
 

bjhack

Well-Known Member
#14
I'm a BS player, not a card counter, but have been following BJINFO for a while.

My thoughts? (if they matter)

Card counting will reduce, if not eliminate, your losses, with a potential of a profit.

It is damn hard, in this day and age, to earn a living at card counting.

If you enjoy what you are doing, and can afford it, go for it! (I'm willing to lose $.50-$.60/$100 bet as a BS player, because the entertainment value is there).

If your gambling is affecting you ability to make payments (car loan, mortgage, etc.), get help.

Blackjack is fun, just know your limits!
 
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