Cheating casino?

[dacium]

This is a situation that happened to me recently and I found it very upsetting. I would assume that 8 shoes that are almost entirely good count all the way down would be extremely unlikly and to loose on them all is almost impossible. Anyway this is what happened:

I goto my local casino (have probably been flagged by now after about 6 winning sessions in a row, didnt seem to attract any heat, so I extended my sessions to 6-8 hours). The tables dont open to 8pm here and close 4am. So I am waiting patentialy behind my favourite $10 table to open. They bring out the cards and shuffle and the game begins.

It is 6 deck. The dealer, some older lady I have never seen (and I have seen most of them) cuts way back like 0.75 decks to the end. Few hands in it goes positive and I ramp. No luck. Next 3 shoes go similar way. All positive, usually going +5 +6 TC with about 2 decks left. I keep loosing.

My friends who I am teaching to play BS also keep loosing. After 4 shoes they decide to leave because they have dropped about 45 units. I am down big time but I stick at it because this same dealer is cutting waay back like below 1 deck (usually its meant to be 1.5). By the 8th shoe I still get good counts and no cards. One shoe went +15 by the last hand with only about 35 cards left i'd say. I decide to shuffle track it. She cuts and mixes only twice and the 35 cards are all within the bottom 3rd of shoe still, so I cut right at 2/3 to get them to the top. I decide to bet out at 5 units for the first 2 decks. I loose big time. The count is high and I am left in amazement and continue to bet to the count to the end of the shoe.

Someone makes a comment about the dealer killing us and I then realise also that I have never seen a single dealer stay at a table so long. Usually they play 30 minutes and change tables. By the time the 8th shoe ends its well over 2 hours and she is still there. I leave and go play pokies with my girlfriend and keep an eye on the table. The dealer was killing everyone. I did the old count how many bust hands and there were 11 out of 100 when I stopped counting (expected about 20 right?)

I was tossing up between staying and watching the cards more and trying to get them to show me the deck at table close time (usually about 4am). But eventually I was just to upset and thought I was probably just steaming so I ended up leaving before throwing any more money away.

All up im still up about a measily 30 units after my hundreds of hours of play now but this one really stung me. I dropped nearly $2k that night

 

[sagefr0g]

it really does sound as if they cheated. very sorry to hear that and i hope i am wrong as that is your local joint.
you said you sat at the table when they brought the cards out. do they spread the cards and the pit boss checks the decks when they bring them out?
sorry about your loss. is this a regulated casino?

very best regards,
mr fr0g

 

[Sonny]

I would assume that 8 shoes that are almost entirely good count all the way down would be extremely unlikly and to loose on them all is almost impossible.

Seeing 8 shoes that are all positive is very unlikely. A 6D game with only .75 decks cut off will show A LOT of positive counts, but you mentioned that they went positive after only a few hands. To have the entire shoe be positive is quite strange. I would be very cautious at that casino. Try watching (NOT PLAYING!) the tables for one night and see if things get back to normal. If the shoes keep getting positive at the beginning and staying positive all the way through then you have a problem.

EDIT: Nevermind. I just re-read your post and saw the part where you tracked the cards and cut them to the top. If that is the case then there is no doubt that you have been cheated.

-Sonny-

 

[ihate17]

If they shorted the shoe, you should tell us who they are

Removing some aces and faces and replacing them with extra 5's and 6's, will give you the kind of situation you witnessed. The count will go up and stay up and the fact that the unplayed lump, which should have been full of high cards was not, further leads to the thought of a shorted stack.
Keeping a dealer on for 2 hours, no break is unknown here in the U.S., especially if other dealers were getting breaks. Cutting less than a deck while everyone else cuts 1.5 makes you wonder if it was a plot against people who care about penetration, cardcounters.

Do they spread the cards or just bring out a rubberbanded stack?
If they spread the cards with a player watching, you can be sure that it is an honest game. If they do not spread them then you should be suspicious.

Years ago there was a California casino accused of this and on many boards it has been mentioned that this happens in Eastern Europe.

I would mention the casino for two reasons: First, if they are cheating, we should all know. Second, perhaps someone else in the area can check it out.

ihate17

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Seeing 8 shoes that are all positive is very unlikely. A 6D game with only .75 decks cut off will show A LOT of positive counts, but you mentioned that they went positive after only a few hands. To have the entire shoe be positive is quite strange. I would be very cautious at that casino. Try watching (NOT PLAYING!) the tables for one night and see if things get back to normal. If the shoes keep getting positive at the beginning and staying positive all the way through then you have a problem.

EDIT: Nevermind. I just re-read your post and saw the part where you tracked the cards and cut them to the top. If that is the case then there is no doubt that you have been cheated.

-Sonny-

Cheating is possible it seems. The extraordinarily good pen is the most suspicious part; it may have been an experiment by the casino to try the combination of a short shoe and deep pen. I saw something like this on a cruise ship once. If more and more dealers start exhibiting great pen and high counts something is likely up.

But before I'd claim cheat I'd go back with another counter for verification. We all make mistakes, especially when our emotions get involved in the game. Australia is overall a pretty ethical place; I don't know how their gaming regulators are but they should be the next people to know should cheating be verified.

One dirty trick Dacium can use is to force them to replace the cards, because when they replace them they have to spread them. You can :vomit: on the table, or spill a sticky drink on them. This might be embarrassing at the time but you'll feel like a hero if you do uncover a cheating scandal at a casino, plus enough people get sick and spill drinks at casinos that it will soon be forgiven and forgotten.

 

[sagefr0g]

one problem of detecting a cheating casino is similar to the problem the casino has detecting an advantage player who has a good act.
they may or maynot cheat all the time.

best regards,
mr fr0g

 

[azbetsgonewild]

Casino cheating is illegal though, being an advantage player is not. They get caught in the act they can lose their gaming liscense

I have suspected this at one of the little po-dunk casinos back in Iowa when I lived there, the dealers just seemed to be pulling way too many 5-6 cards.

one way you could do this is by counting the number of ace/10 valued cards coming out of the deck, if they are consistently low, then you know they pulled some of them, or you could also count the number of 5-6 and if they are abnormally high then you would know.

The thing is, a casino can get in VERY big trouble for cheating at a game if you can prove it, they would probably wind up having to pay their players back a handsome reward as long as the state gaming commission isn't as corrupt as they are.

I am sure that some casinos do this, after all the entire place is driven by greed and there is some criminal element behind the scenes in a lot of cases.

 

[walrus_poker]

Being a casino dealer, I can nearly be 100% sure they do not cheat. They dont need to. Im not sure which casino you are, regulated by the government or not, but what you experienced is pretty rare. Some dealers do cut less than they are supposed to, I know a few and I do it too at times, to avoid shuffling as often. Dealer being there for more than 2 hours however, is rare. Its happened to be before because they messed up the breaks order but that shouldnt happen.

 

[azbetsgonewild]

it would be wrong to assume that some casinos do not cheat, it has been documented in the past. I think its rare because like you said they really do not need too, but it does happen. I wouldn't worry about it in any big corporate casinos, but I wonder sometimes about the shady little indian joints.

 

[jimpenn]

Spilling drink is your only chance to break new cards. If you would call for a "countdown" the cards would be removed from the table (Maybe) and countdown would be preformed in back room. I asked this same question recently concerning an Indiana casino and was given this advice. At the time I didn't think about counting down A/10's for a few shoes, or 5/6's, but this would be interesting. I wonder what the average number of these totals would be for a ten shoe count? Spill and drink and get it over with. They will have to spread in front of you, but what they would probably do is close table and open another. But, you will then get to see cards spread at the newly opened table, if they open another. I bet they don't.

 

[supercoolmancool]

Is it illegal to purposely spill a drink?

 

[EasyRhino]

In Comp City, Max Rubin recommends spilling a drink once per casino per shift.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Is it illegal to purposely spill a drink?

Yes. You are intentionally damaging casino property. But the burden is on them to prove you intended to spill it.

 

[sagefr0g]

Yes. You are intentionally damaging casino property. But the burden is on them to prove you intended to spill it.

nor ethical IMHO. been my experience going against what one believes is ethical sets into motion the 'what goes around comes around' syndrome. thats a tact i'd avoid.

best regards,
mr fr0g

 

[jimpenn]

"What goes around comes around"...but what's your feeling when you get screwed on comp's after playing for two hours, losing $300 and you have $6 on your card

Goes both ways.

jp

 

[dacium]

I went back at open time and they do not show cards.

This is pretty much how I was treated:
-didnt let me sit down at the table while shuffle, had to stand up.
-when I asked to see the cards face up at first they refused and said that is only done a new 6 deck mix and this one was a used on (just had rubber bands around it) I said i have the right to see before the first shuffle. The bit poss then asks me what my problem is and explains that they dont show on used cards.
-they didnt let me leave any table with low denomiation chips. i guess they didnt like me back betting people when i happened to walk past good counts that had no people left. the pit poss used to come out and 'insist' that i change my reds to blacks before leaving the table because it would 'unbalance' the chips (this is despite the fact that they have double chip trays).

Anyway I am going to watch a few more games. If they are cheating then its possible that more 6 of the same card will appear on the table at once and ill be able to catch them.

 

[sagefr0g]

"What goes around comes around"...but what's your feeling when you get screwed on comp's after playing for two hours, losing $300 and you have $6 on your card

Goes both ways.

jp

if there is a genuine breach of contract in a joint that has a gaming commission then there is most likely a civil option for resolving it. would it be worth the hassle? i doubt it.... for joints that are not regulated there are other civil options such as a direct challenge of an issue or other forms of protest such as the guy in south Florida who went to the news when he didn't get paid a jackpot he had allegedly won.
essentially the issue comes down to if a joint cheats you are you entitled to cheat them. perhaps you are i don't really know. i think it depends on your personal ethics to some degree. i believe it's best in general to make every effort to find a civil, ethical way to even the playing field in any contest worth entering so as to gain the true upper hand against a preditory opponent. a crockodile is no match for a man if a man ignores the reptilian miniscule portion of his brain and uses it's higher order functions.

best regards,
mr fr0g

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I went back at open time and they do not show cards.

This is pretty much how I was treated:
-didnt let me sit down at the table while shuffle, had to stand up.
-when I asked to see the cards face up at first they refused and said that is only done a new 6 deck mix and this one was a used on (just had rubber bands around it) I said i have the right to see before the first shuffle. The bit poss then asks me what my problem is and explains that they dont show on used cards.
-they didnt let me leave any table with low denomiation chips. i guess they didnt like me back betting people when i happened to walk past good counts that had no people left. the pit poss used to come out and 'insist' that i change my reds to blacks before leaving the table because it would 'unbalance' the chips (this is despite the fact that they have double chip trays).

Anyway I am going to watch a few more games. If they are cheating then its possible that more 6 of the same card will appear on the table at once and ill be able to catch them.

So this is a place where they reconstitute the decks at the end of play and use them another day? Sounds like a cheap place to me. Also very suspicious- it would seem you'd have more of a reason to spread the cards if they were reconstituted, not less.

 

[Sonny]

This is pretty much how I was treated:
-didnt let me sit down at the table while shuffle, had to stand up.
-when I asked to see the cards face up at first they refused and said that is only done a new 6 deck mix and this one was a used on (just had rubber bands around it) I said i have the right to see before the first shuffle. The bit poss then asks me what my problem is and explains that they dont show on used cards.
-they didnt let me leave any table with low denomiation chips. i guess they didnt like me back betting people when i happened to walk past good counts that had no people left. the pit poss used to come out and 'insist' that i change my reds to blacks before leaving the table because it would 'unbalance' the chips (this is despite the fact that they have double chip trays).

Even if they're not cheating it sounds like the employees are real a$$holes who don't treat you right and won't give you a good game. I would avoid this casino anyway.

-Sonny-

 

[ihate17]

How are the games regulated?

Dacium
I believe you play in Australia, but I might be wrong.

There must be some kind of gaming commission that can be contacted and could run an unannounced check on your casino.
In Eastern Europe where shorting a shoe is not that uncommon, you are dealing with the local mob and paid off government officials. Proving a casino is cheating there just might get one killed.

If you were to see 7 five of hearts come out on a shoe, there should be someone to contact. Telling the pit boss will do you no good. He might have been the one to set the stack of cards up and he will just refuse to spread the cards but change them just in case.

Proof to gaming type agents might be very hard to come by. I would just avoid the place completely unless you can get quick government help.

ihate17