I've run into a little confusion when combining I18+F4 with BS. I've listed the basic strategy, I18, and F4 below. The BS is for 8deck, S17, DOA, DAS, Resplitting Pairs to 3hands, draw more than 1 card to split aces, 6card automatic winner, Early Surrender, Split like cards only, Insurance offered, Blackjack pays 3:2, Dealer peeks under A, T; A push ties w/ dealer, full penetration until there're less than 6 cards undealt. These rules are pretty generous, I guess, because I'm playing against a program that cheats once in awhile. So, if I stay even with the program, I figure it's about the same or (hopefully) worse than playing a live game with tougher rules. I'm mostly just concerned with making sure I'm playing correctly according to the BS, I18, and F4 that I'm using. Now, onto the fun part. I hope it's legible enough without coding cells, etc. to make it neater. Hit=H, Stand=S, Double=D, Split=P, Surrender=R:
Player Dealer's Up Card
Hand 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 T A
8orLess- Hit'em all.
9- D/H 3 through 6; Hit the rest.
T- D/H 2 through 9; Hit T & A.
11- D/H 2 through T; Hit A.
12- Stand 4, 5, and 6; Hit the rest.
13, 14- Stand 2 through 6; Hit the rest.
15- Stand 2 through 6; Hit 7, 8, 9, & A; R/H T.
16- Stand 2 through 6; Hit 7 & 8; R/H 9, T, & A.
17orMore- Stand on all.
A2, A3- D/H 5, & 6; Hit the rest.
A4, A5- D/H 4, 5, & 6; Hit the rest.
A6- D/H 3 through 6; Hit the rest.
A7- Stand on 2, 7, & 8; D/S 3, 4, & 6; D/H 5; Hit the rest.
A8, A9- Stand on all.
2,2 & 3,3- P/H 2 through 7; Hit the rest.
4,4- P/H 5 & 6; Hit the rest.
5,5- D/H 2 through 9; Hit T & A.
6,6- P/H 2 & 3, P/S 4, 5, & 6; Hit the rest.
7,7- P/S 2, 4, 5, & 6; P/H 3 & 7; Hit the rest.
8,8- P/S 2 through 6; P/H the rest.
9,9- Stand 7, T, & A; P/S the rest.
T,T- Stand on all.
A,A- P/H on all.
I18 & F4 (for HiLo)
Take Insurance +3
S/H 16 vs T 0
S/H 15 vs T +4
P/S T,T vs 5 +5
P/S T,T vs 6 +4
D/H T vs T +4
S/H 12 vs 3 +2
S/H 12 vs 2 +3
D/H 11 vs A +1
D/H 9 vs 2 +1
D/H T vs A +4
D/H 9 vs 7 +3
S/H 16 vs 9 +5
S/H 13 vs 2 -1
S/H 12 vs 4 0
S/H 12 vs 5 -2
S/H 12 vs 6 -1
S/H 13 vs 3 -2
R/H 14 vs T +3
R/H 15 vs T 0
R/H 15 vs 9 +2
R/H 15 vs A +1
Okay, above I listed the basic strategy and the I18+F4 that I'm using. The first thing that concerns me are the basic strategy rules for surrendering 15 vs T and 16 vs 9, T, & A. I went ahead and made those four playing decisions (R/H) in the basic strategy above because most other charts that I've seen agree. Also, there's only one minor difference between the basic strategy listed above and the previous one that I had memorized, from WOO's site. However, I haven't been able to find expected values for surrender plays anywhere online, which is why the four plays still bug me a little bit. I've read somewhere that a person doesn't want to surrender a hand unless it has an EV of -0.50 or less. This makes sense but then again I'm not an authority on the subject. So, are my four surrender plays, listed in the basic strategy above, the correct ones???
Alright, I was playing along using the above strategies to guide my decisions when I started to run into some confusion once in awhile. One decision I see that gives me pause is "S/H 15 vs T at +4 or more" (I18). Well, that's fine and dandy but then I think, "What about surrender?", which is listed in the basic strategy and the F4??? You see, when I first started using the I18+F4 indices, I had it in my head to FIRST apply the I18+F4, if applicable; if the decision was not an I18+F4 listed play, then I would default to the basic strategy.
So, I looked around on the internet until I found some bits of info that made my confusion seem smaller than I had originally thought. However pennies are pennies and they add up after awhile... So, I thought I was either on the right track towards the solution or maybe chasing my tail, so to speak. Then, in a compromise to my original thought process, I figured that maybe I'm supposed to apply the F4 surrender indices to my first two cards only, where surrender is allowed. Then apply the I18, where applicable, and then default to the basic strategy. Keep in mind that this idea occurred to me before I knew what I THINK I now know about surrendering hands and, specifically, the plays concerning 16 vs 9, T, & A; and 15 vs T. After some looking around online, I've come to the conclusion that those four plays, maybe among others, are pretty lousy hands because of the expected values, and the whole point of surrendering them is to lose less money in the long run.
Okay, I think to myself, that makes sense but if I apply the F4 first, the I18 second, and finally the basic strategy, then I'm going to miss out on surrendering my 16 when I'm up agains a dealer's 9 or 10 (as per I18). Well, now I start to wonder how dense I've become over the years. Back to the drawing board...
After some more hours of looking around on the web, I forget the source's name or where I found the info, but it sounded good enough for me to incorporate into my playing. One reason I added it was because I used to surrender 16 vs T, & A when I used my old basic strategy and I kind've miss it. That, and the newly aquired motivations to surrender where possible to lose less. Anyway, it may have been some indices that were posted somewhere, but the argument was to surrender 16 vs 9, T, and A whenever the true count was 0 or greater. After I seen it, I wanted to confirm it with a "surrender" calculator or a trusted table from somewhere but I haven't been able to find either one yet. But, I thought to myself, now I'll get back some of surrendering options that the basic strategy called for in the first place...
By now, I think it would be foolish of me to not ask all of you experts on this site, "What should my method be when I'm using a basic strategy, the I18, and the F4 to reach a playing decision???:
As of now, I FIRST apply the F4 and surrender the hands that it tells me to at (or greater) than its index numbers. Along with the F4, I also surrender my 16 vs a dealer's 9, T, or A at a true count of 0 or greater (I think one of those index #'s was supposed to be + or - 1 but I use 0 because it makes the three plays easy to remember since it fits in well with the F4 indice of 0 when surrendering 15 vs 10. SECOND, I apply the I18 if the situation calls for it. THIRD, I let the basic strategy tell me how to play hands that don't fall under I18 or F4 rules. Is this the correct way to do it???
Or should I FIRST apply the F4 surrender rules and include surrendering 16 vs 9, T, & A at any count (per the basic strategy); SECOND, apply the I18 where applicable; and THIRD, apply the basic strategy if a playing decision is still required???
Thanks for any insights you have. This is a great site, by the way. I've gotten a wealth of information just from searching the forums but I haven't been able to 'put it all together' enough to answer the above problem.
Player Dealer's Up Card
Hand 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 T A
8orLess- Hit'em all.
9- D/H 3 through 6; Hit the rest.
T- D/H 2 through 9; Hit T & A.
11- D/H 2 through T; Hit A.
12- Stand 4, 5, and 6; Hit the rest.
13, 14- Stand 2 through 6; Hit the rest.
15- Stand 2 through 6; Hit 7, 8, 9, & A; R/H T.
16- Stand 2 through 6; Hit 7 & 8; R/H 9, T, & A.
17orMore- Stand on all.
A2, A3- D/H 5, & 6; Hit the rest.
A4, A5- D/H 4, 5, & 6; Hit the rest.
A6- D/H 3 through 6; Hit the rest.
A7- Stand on 2, 7, & 8; D/S 3, 4, & 6; D/H 5; Hit the rest.
A8, A9- Stand on all.
2,2 & 3,3- P/H 2 through 7; Hit the rest.
4,4- P/H 5 & 6; Hit the rest.
5,5- D/H 2 through 9; Hit T & A.
6,6- P/H 2 & 3, P/S 4, 5, & 6; Hit the rest.
7,7- P/S 2, 4, 5, & 6; P/H 3 & 7; Hit the rest.
8,8- P/S 2 through 6; P/H the rest.
9,9- Stand 7, T, & A; P/S the rest.
T,T- Stand on all.
A,A- P/H on all.
I18 & F4 (for HiLo)
Take Insurance +3
S/H 16 vs T 0
S/H 15 vs T +4
P/S T,T vs 5 +5
P/S T,T vs 6 +4
D/H T vs T +4
S/H 12 vs 3 +2
S/H 12 vs 2 +3
D/H 11 vs A +1
D/H 9 vs 2 +1
D/H T vs A +4
D/H 9 vs 7 +3
S/H 16 vs 9 +5
S/H 13 vs 2 -1
S/H 12 vs 4 0
S/H 12 vs 5 -2
S/H 12 vs 6 -1
S/H 13 vs 3 -2
R/H 14 vs T +3
R/H 15 vs T 0
R/H 15 vs 9 +2
R/H 15 vs A +1
Okay, above I listed the basic strategy and the I18+F4 that I'm using. The first thing that concerns me are the basic strategy rules for surrendering 15 vs T and 16 vs 9, T, & A. I went ahead and made those four playing decisions (R/H) in the basic strategy above because most other charts that I've seen agree. Also, there's only one minor difference between the basic strategy listed above and the previous one that I had memorized, from WOO's site. However, I haven't been able to find expected values for surrender plays anywhere online, which is why the four plays still bug me a little bit. I've read somewhere that a person doesn't want to surrender a hand unless it has an EV of -0.50 or less. This makes sense but then again I'm not an authority on the subject. So, are my four surrender plays, listed in the basic strategy above, the correct ones???
Alright, I was playing along using the above strategies to guide my decisions when I started to run into some confusion once in awhile. One decision I see that gives me pause is "S/H 15 vs T at +4 or more" (I18). Well, that's fine and dandy but then I think, "What about surrender?", which is listed in the basic strategy and the F4??? You see, when I first started using the I18+F4 indices, I had it in my head to FIRST apply the I18+F4, if applicable; if the decision was not an I18+F4 listed play, then I would default to the basic strategy.
So, I looked around on the internet until I found some bits of info that made my confusion seem smaller than I had originally thought. However pennies are pennies and they add up after awhile... So, I thought I was either on the right track towards the solution or maybe chasing my tail, so to speak. Then, in a compromise to my original thought process, I figured that maybe I'm supposed to apply the F4 surrender indices to my first two cards only, where surrender is allowed. Then apply the I18, where applicable, and then default to the basic strategy. Keep in mind that this idea occurred to me before I knew what I THINK I now know about surrendering hands and, specifically, the plays concerning 16 vs 9, T, & A; and 15 vs T. After some looking around online, I've come to the conclusion that those four plays, maybe among others, are pretty lousy hands because of the expected values, and the whole point of surrendering them is to lose less money in the long run.
Okay, I think to myself, that makes sense but if I apply the F4 first, the I18 second, and finally the basic strategy, then I'm going to miss out on surrendering my 16 when I'm up agains a dealer's 9 or 10 (as per I18). Well, now I start to wonder how dense I've become over the years. Back to the drawing board...
After some more hours of looking around on the web, I forget the source's name or where I found the info, but it sounded good enough for me to incorporate into my playing. One reason I added it was because I used to surrender 16 vs T, & A when I used my old basic strategy and I kind've miss it. That, and the newly aquired motivations to surrender where possible to lose less. Anyway, it may have been some indices that were posted somewhere, but the argument was to surrender 16 vs 9, T, and A whenever the true count was 0 or greater. After I seen it, I wanted to confirm it with a "surrender" calculator or a trusted table from somewhere but I haven't been able to find either one yet. But, I thought to myself, now I'll get back some of surrendering options that the basic strategy called for in the first place...
By now, I think it would be foolish of me to not ask all of you experts on this site, "What should my method be when I'm using a basic strategy, the I18, and the F4 to reach a playing decision???:
As of now, I FIRST apply the F4 and surrender the hands that it tells me to at (or greater) than its index numbers. Along with the F4, I also surrender my 16 vs a dealer's 9, T, or A at a true count of 0 or greater (I think one of those index #'s was supposed to be + or - 1 but I use 0 because it makes the three plays easy to remember since it fits in well with the F4 indice of 0 when surrendering 15 vs 10. SECOND, I apply the I18 if the situation calls for it. THIRD, I let the basic strategy tell me how to play hands that don't fall under I18 or F4 rules. Is this the correct way to do it???
Or should I FIRST apply the F4 surrender rules and include surrendering 16 vs 9, T, & A at any count (per the basic strategy); SECOND, apply the I18 where applicable; and THIRD, apply the basic strategy if a playing decision is still required???
Thanks for any insights you have. This is a great site, by the way. I've gotten a wealth of information just from searching the forums but I haven't been able to 'put it all together' enough to answer the above problem.