Confession and Question from a Newbie

BigLoser · Oct 22, 2009

I had never been to a casino and had no interest in gambling until I visited one about three years ago (at the age of 40). Now I'm fascinated by blackjack and want to play more. The closest casino to me is about 3 hours away and my wife doesn't know about my fascination, so I only play about twice a year so far.

My question: I've seen a few people on here talk about getting banned. I've only played at Harrah's so far. At what point will they ban someone? I've left every session ahead, so I hate the thought that I could get banned just for winning a lot.

My confession: I'm a Christian and belong to a rather "fundamentalist" denomination. They believe that gambling is sinful, but I've honestly never heard a good reason why. To me, it's just my entertainment dollars that I'm willing to blow. Anyone else in a similar position? Anyone else hiding it from your spouse?

Thanks,
BL

SleightOfHand · Oct 22, 2009

BigLoser said:

What does gambling mean anyway? As APs (or at least trying to be), we look for advantageous situations and bet accordingly to that advantage, the standard deviation (randomness), and our bankroll to create a high probability of coming out ahead after a period of time (somewhat defined by N0). We are investors, at least somewhat comparable to stock traders or other kinds of "legitimate" investors. It is like gambling in the sense that we are risking money to make more money, but I would say a big difference is that gamblers (even those that have +EV games) bet in a way that they have a high probability of losing their bankroll.

Thats how I see things anyway. I wonder how the experts here think.

FLASH1296 · Oct 22, 2009

Winning a few hundred twice a year is not going to cause you any trouble whatsoever.

sabre · Oct 22, 2009

Casinos only ban theoretically unprofitable customers. As long as you aren't playing with an advantage (via counting or otherwise) ... you won't be banned for simply winning.

In general, don't participate in any activities you feel the need to hide from either your wife or your God. Gambling especially.

Automatic Monkey · Oct 22, 2009

BigLoser said:

You will not be banned simply for winning. You will be banned for playing with an advantage, whether you win or lose. For most of us, the way you acquire an advantage is by card counting. This site, and the resources we recommend, are the way to learn this practice. Keep in mind, that if you enjoy blackjack for a thrill that thrill will probably disappear once you approach it as applied mathematics. There is nothing exciting about what we do; it's as boring and onerous as it is profitable. You will also endure a lot of abuse from other players for not playing in accordance with their superstitions and ignorance.

And speaking of ignorance, I'm Christian myself as are quite a few others here, and although I would not tell anyone else how to live their life or apply their faith, I'm also unaware of any way that advantage play or even outright gambling would be incompatible with being Christian. (Same for drinking, drugs and sex, as far as I'm concerned.) Many such beliefs are actually medieval imports from Islam, and before the 7th century only Christians that belonged to ascetic sects (which predate Christianity) adhered to any kind of moralistic behavioral code.

One suggestion I can offer is to tithe part of your expectation value to your church or a charity that helps those whom have been harmed by gambling. Being your expectation value will only be a positive number if you are playing with an advantage, there is now a Biblical reason for you to learn advantage play before you go back to the casino! :angel:

daddybo · Oct 22, 2009

Know where you are coming from

BigLoser said:

Big Loser:
I am laughing my fannie off at some of these posts.. I am very much in the same boat as you. My difference is a played a lot during a misspent youth, later marrried and started playing again after the kids got older. My dear wife does not understand it at all... She hates a casino. I too am a member of a biblically based church. I don't hide it from my wife.. that is wrong. I just do it anyway.. (can you say submit woman? :laugh: just kidding about that.) I too have searched the bible for clues to whether gambling is sinful and I can find no straight forward verse to condem the practice if (1) you are using excess money you would otherwise be spending on anything fun, (2) It's not causing you any problems at home. (3) Your behaving yourself while playing.

I could say a lot more about it.. but you get the picture.

P.S. there may be better places for you to play than Harrah's.

You wouldn't by chance be in the
South?

PSS: I tell my wife I'm not really gambling (advantage play) and she's seen it. But, she says I might make somebody else stumble.

. So don't stumble because of what I said.

daddybo · Oct 22, 2009

addendum..

She didn't know my other self before we married. She's recently had a huge awakening. lol

I would love for my wife to accompany me and I've taken her before... It didn't work; she just can't get passed her raising (her words, not mine)... she stays home on those trips now.

BigLoser · Oct 22, 2009

DaddyBo

You do sound like a kindred spirit. And you're right. When/if my wife finds out, she'll be more upset about the secrets than about the gaming. I can probably handle that part. How often do you play? I'm trying to figure out what's "fair" if I want to go and spend a couple of days at a casino. Once a month? Or once a year? Our kids are still young. And I really am staying out of trouble when I go. I have absolutely no interest in alcohol or hooking up with other women when I go. And you guessed it right. I'm in TN.

BL

StandardDeviant · Oct 22, 2009

BigLoser said:

Keep in mind that you will have losing sessions and sometimes you will lose a lot of money. These times will be difficult emotionally. I wonder how your religious beliefs will add to the burden associated with losing streaks.

Undertaking a hobby that you feel you need to hide from your spouse, and your friends, and your church? That will add to your burden. What are the consequences if/when any of them find out?

Are you sure you want to do this?

lovethespaniard · Oct 22, 2009

God and Jesus must think gambling is ok, or they'd miracle it gone, eh? :cool2:

daddybo · Oct 23, 2009

BigLoser said:

NOT trying to lead you astray.. You should find a couple of Guy friends that she can tolerate. Get them together and have boy trips to the casino. You'll have accountability and it's more fun with friends. Having young kids will make it difficult, but you should be able to swing it as often as you probably want to at first anyway. I have a trip such as that I do once a month (* but we fly in fly out same day). I go more often, but I get static.
Have you asked her if she wants to go? That would be the best thing.

PS. I was in TN yesterday.. dropping one of my kids at school.

creeping panther · Oct 23, 2009

Young kids.

BigLoser said:

You do sound like a kindred spirit. And you're right. When/if my wife finds out, she'll be more upset about the secrets than about the gaming. I can probably handle that part. How often do you play? I'm trying to figure out what's "fair" if I want to go and spend a couple of days at a casino. Once a month? Or once a year? Our kids are still young. And I really am staying out of trouble when I go. I have absolutely no interest in alcohol or hooking up with other women when I go. And you guessed it right. I'm in TN.

BL

I say wait till the kids are much older.

CP

daddybo · Oct 23, 2009

creeping panther said:

Probably the best advice... BJ can consume enormous amounts of time.

UK-21 · Oct 23, 2009

Some interesting points here.

Firstly the profound one; how does one define gambling? When you buy a lottery ticket you've no idea how many will be sold, what the prize fund will be, how many people it will be shared between etc. So a gamble by just about any measure I would think. When you make a wager on the craps table, you know there is a 6/36, or 1/6, or 5-1 chance of rolling a 7 and that the payout on the 7 proposition bet is 4-1 (so there's a hefty house edge on that bet). So would that be gambling, or making an informed decision based on the probabilities of something happening?

Many years ago when I worked in London, the boss arranged a staff day out to the (horse) races - formal lunch etc etc. One of the people I worked with attended an evangelical church who took the view that gambling was evil and should not be countenanced. He chose not to join us. We remonstrated with him to join us - he didn't have to place a bet - but he was adament that gambling was a sin and he didn't want to encourage others to do it by being present. It was interesting that the boss himself was a devout Christian and church goer who quite happily placed his bets on the horse of his choice and on the grounds that in his case it was harmless entertainment that he was paying for. As he pointed out, nowhere in the bible does it say that gambling is sinful and the faithful should not participate in it (and during biblical times games of dice were very popular I believe?). If that was the case, I suspect that a lot of the congregation at BigLoser's church that are involved in work in investments would have a serious crisis of conscience to overcome.

So the "gambling is evil" thing is a matter of interpretation within the Christian faith and not something that is prohibited within what is written within the good book.

Now having said all of that, if BigLoser is keeping his playing BJ a secret from his wife and friends at his church, and is going against the teachings of his church but continuing to attend for worship, then it DOES fall into the category of problem gambling (not all problem gambling is just about the amount of ££/$$s people lose) and he needs to resolve the matter. Personally I think it's a no brainer - BJ really isn't that important, whereas wife, family, faith and lifestyle are. Yes, the maths underpinning the game are fascinating, but so is the question of life on Mars. You wouldn't risk the foundations of your life in an effort to resolve that question?

If you do decide to play on, good cards mate!

FLASH1296 · Oct 23, 2009

What I believe

I have never found a direct biblical prohibition on gambling.

But, Jesus 86'd the money lenders from the temple; and then there was that incident
where surveillance caught those Romans shooting Craps for Jesus' stuff.

The prohibition is, I imagine, derivative of its being an activity that is sinful because it is NOT charitable;
it is highly materialistic; and it encourages one to covet money for money's sake.

Thus "The Love of Money is the Root of All Evil"

It also encourages (for some) moral violations e.g. cheating and stealing, indebtedness, depriving dependents
of a better life-style, being unproductive by wasting one's (limited) time (on Earth)

I suppose the most compelling argument that i can come up with to demonstrate that gambling is an "evil" is simply this:

Christianity holds dear the values bequeathed to us by Jesus' behaviors and statements.

CLEARLY, gambling cannot possibly be construed as an activity that Jesus would have engaged in.

In my mind, "modeling" Jesus" is what it takes to be a Christian. Not handing your money to a televangelist,

depending on miracles, believing in angels and demons, faith healing, or the "Rapture"

or using religion to justify reactionary ultra right-wing political zealotry, homophobia, etc.

StandardDeviant · Oct 23, 2009

FLASH1296 said:

Would it be correct to say God gambled when He sent us His only son?

Did He know the outcome, or did we have free will?

daddybo · Oct 23, 2009

StandardDeviant said:

Depends on your denomination. Although all that I am familiar with acknowledge free will. (I say it was Not a gamble.. if it were then probablity is our god.) :whip:

daddybo · Oct 23, 2009

Flash... I mostly agree with your statements..

But ya know, Jesus hung around some pretty unsavory cats during his earthly stay. So you know he had to be around things that were not compatible with his teachings.

About the money changers, if I'm not mistaken they were usurious bankers and not BJ dealers.

FLASH1296 · Oct 23, 2009

Usury is little different from offering the public slot machines and unbeatable games; while doing their best "marketing" to convince the vast multitudes of innumerates that they can win.

I assume that you know that when one "borrows" money from a loan shark to pay a gambling debt (that is almost all of their business) the interest ("vig" or "vigorish") is 20% per week. Needless to say, no effort is made to collect the principle, just the weekly interest. It is little difference from casinos taking a sucker's money, plying him with alcohol, comping him to the hilt, and then offering him a big credit line that he cannot afford, and then finally forcing him into bankruptcy.

daddybo · Oct 23, 2009

FLASH1296 said:

Ouch.. you got me. MY thinking was; Yes they take money from the masses, but it stops when they run out of money... in those days if you couldn't pay ... your were enslaved or imprisoned. But you are basically correct. There really isn't a whole lot of difference.

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