Continuous shuffle machines

[Elhombre]

:eyepatch: :eyepatch: :eyepatch:

was your clump tracking done on the One2six?
if so could u elaborate on the details possibly.
Every casino around me has those One2six csms ( i think, maybe a few don't)and there is only one place that still offers shoe games. here in canada...

soooo any insight into these things would be greatly appreciated.

la dee--------- its not clump tracking, its tracking of single cards.
And I don't want to tell more in an open board.
:joker:
You have to make your own experiances.
I give you an example: you see 3 kings of hearts going together into the tray
and then you have to remember them and look how they come out of the
machine.
OK I give away a secret, I call it the sandwich ace. If there is an ace, above the ace is a 10 of hearts and above the 10 of hearts is an ace of clubs.
You only have to remember the ace of clubs and the 10, after that must come the ace of hearts out of the machine. When the ace is coming and how many cards between them you have to make your own experiances and
statistics.
You have to train your brain and have to remenber about 15 to 20 combinations of cards and have to control them, when they come out, to be successful.
Sorry but more I cannot tell.:eyepatch:
regards rainer

 

[davidpom]

Wow, a complex exercise indeed to remember the magical clumps of cards... but what I don't understand is this: the device is a random shuffler. Those cards might go into the shuffler together, but they will be shuffled into different spots. The middle of the One2Six unit is a big spinner holding cards, and the way in which it spins is controlled by a random algorithm... on that basis I would have thought the chances of any cards going in together ending up anywhere near each other is pretty slim statistically.

 

[la_dee_daa]

:eyepatch: :eyepatch: :eyepatch:

la dee--------- its not clump tracking, its tracking of single cards.
And I don't want to tell more in an open board.
:joker:
You have to make your own experiances.
I give you an example: you see 3 kings of hearts going together into the tray
and then you have to remember them and look how they come out of the
machine.
OK I give away a secret, I call it the sandwich ace. If there is an ace, above the ace is a 10 of hearts and above the 10 of hearts is an ace of clubs.
You only have to remember the ace of clubs and the 10, after that must come the ace of hearts out of the machine. When the ace is coming and how many cards between them you have to make your own experiances and
statistics.
You have to train your brain and have to remenber about 15 to 20 combinations of cards and have to control them, when they come out, to be successful.
Sorry but more I cannot tell.:eyepatch:
regards rainer

yea i thought you would have to do something like that I just didnt know what it was exactly called, first thing i could think of was clump..... i was thinking the same thing but didn't know if it was actually practical in use and didn't want to watch a csm for hours waiting for it to do a trick. I will go give it a go sometime... still not sure if it would work on that One2Six becuase i looked at the specs and there it has alot of ferris wheel card trays kinda what Davidpom was saying. I wont have a problem remembering the numerous series of cards though so im not concerned about that. i just really want to know ifs its possible on the One2six so pm me if u wish about that.

Thanks for telling me im on the right track of thinking though but maybe not my phrasing calling it clumps and all.

 

[bigbjfan]

Elhombre,

The casino that I have been observing uses the Shuffle King CSM and from what you describe, we are seeing the same things. Let me also say that these devices are not very efficient at what they do.

 

[Elhombre]

the device is a random shuffler.

davidpom------ device and reallity often differ, someone must prove,
its not easy and you could create over the time something like a seventh sence for combinations of cards.

My question ,I would like more special things about this CSM, at the end of the day they open the shuffler and I can look inside, but that's not enough.
The best would be to watch the open CSM when it shuffles. Do you have such opportunities ?
Or to own such a machine.

regards rainer

 

[ihate17]

Been away (playing blackjack)

For the record I didn't ignore your post about a 4 deck shoe being equivalent to an infinite shoe. I just didn't respond because your enlightened analysis is simply not mathematically correct. The cards may be dealt infinitely, but there are still only 4 decks in play at any time. Only 16 2's. Only 16 5's. Only 16 6's. That is an indisputible fact. The ability for the dealer to pull cards without busting is dependent upon those cards and the number of them that can be potentially pulled at any time. So, rather than start a flaming war in the forum (which is completely pointless) I chose not to respond to the post and cause you obvious embarrassment. Personal choice. Please forgive me.

Heck, we're all here to HELP each other. So let's do that shall we? Or are you intent on filling an adult forum with schoolyard politics and bullying?

I do not know if anyone else replied to this but will do so before reading the rest of this thread.

Yes there are only 16 2's as you stated in your 4 decks in the CSM but that means nothing! Can 20 2's be dealt out in a total amount of hands that might equal a 4 deck shoe when using a CSM? Because the cards are constantly being put back into the CSM the answer is yes. In a rare case maybe 30 2's could be dealt in that period of time, perhaps even more. Now can more than 16 2's EVER be dealt from a regular 4 deck show? Not without some sort of cheating or mistake.
Pure apples and oranges unless they are doing stuff like dealing out 3 decks before putting the cards back into the CSM, which I doubt. If they are putting them back every hand or two, you mathematically, have a near infinate stack of cards and not 4 decks, even though there are only 4 decks in play.

Check my past posts for some tidbits on my being barred and avoiding barrings. More than that I will not give you because I still suspect you might be a casino shill.

ihate17

ihate17

 

[ihate17]

Yes but he is an advantage player?

No big deal but a 4-deck CSM would be the same as a 4 deck game to a BS player.

Well, if you ignore the cut-card effect in a 4-deck shoe.

If you don't ignore it, the CSM would actually have a lower HA for a BS player.

For an infinite deck, all you would really need is 1 deck of cards, deal one card, put it back, and re-shuffle lol.

I stated near infinite because you are dealing about 20 cards to a full table out of a total of 208 and then putting them back into the machine. As I said to the original poster using one of his examples: you can not get dealt more than 16 2's from a 4 deck shoe but in the same amount of hands that it would take to deal out a complete 4 deck shoe but using a CSM you could get many more or many less 2's than 16. So as you say for a BS player, where decisions are not composite dependent, it might make no difference but it is still very very far from the same thing.
Hell you might get a 4 deck period of time where 30 aces come out and there are tons of blackjacks though I do recognize that over time it will all even out (again somewhere approaching infinity but not quite there)

ihate17

 

[davidpom]

Check my past posts for some tidbits on my being barred and avoiding barrings. More than that I will not give you because I still suspect you might be a casino shill.
ihate17

Hi, for the record I can assure you (and other forum readers) that I AM NOT a casino shill. I'm a player. I go to a casino to get money, sure, but I am NOT on their payroll. I take it fairly through advantage play.

Who would want to work for dollars an hour with smoke blowing in your face all day, standing up, and taking abuse from the public? Not me. I'm happy sitting down, playing games, and winning much more an hour on average than the normal average wage. I can't stomach that for a full 8 hours a day, sure, but I'm happy with the 10-12 hours I spend in a casino each week.

so rest assured, I'm a player like 99% of the others here. SHILL FREE ZONE.

 

[davidpom]

Hell you might get a 4 deck period of time where 30 aces come out and there are tons of blackjacks though I do recognize that over time it will all even out (again somewhere approaching infinity but not quite there)
ihate17

And therein lies my original argument - when it "evens out" it's going to be awfully close to a 4-deck game average I would think.

Anyway, it's been a good debate. I'm happy to agree to differ on this. We both have our opinions on this, neither is right nor wrong (I think). Thanks for the discussion though - it's good for all of us to look at things from different angles with a view to helping our individual playing styles.

 

[aslan]

And therein lies my original argument - when it "evens out" it's going to be awfully close to a 4-deck game average I would think.

Anyway, it's been a good debate. I'm happy to agree to differ on this. We both have our opinions on this, neither is right nor wrong (I think). Thanks for the discussion though - it's good for all of us to look at things from different angles with a view to helping our individual playing styles.

I don't understand your logic. If it is approaching infinity, how can you say it is close to a 4-deck game average? The two are hardly identical.

 

[EasyRhino]

Wait, I thought that, if you had, say, four decks loaded into a CSM, and it was reloaded every round, then it would be the equivalent of playing a four-deck game, freshly shuffled and "off the top" every round.

So the house edge would be equivalent to playing a regular 4 deck game (but faster, no breaks for shuffles). Not an infinite-deck game, which would have a higher house edge.

 

[ihate17]

conceed

Yes, I finally agree it is a 4 deck game, with only the cut card effect making an insignificant difference for the BS player.
My problem is that I never think like a BS player and any blackjack game without a floating edge ( count going up and down and along with it the casino or player edge) is like shuffle the shoe, deal one hand and shuffle again, so you never will know if you have an edge on a hand.

ihate17

 

[Kasi]

I don't understand your logic. If it is approaching infinity, how can you say it is close to a 4-deck game average? The two are hardly identical.

If ihate17 can come around lol, appreciate the open mind by the way ihate17, so can you in case you are in doubt. Which you might not be lol. But, just in case you are not sure, or Davidpom is not sure, a 4 deck CSM is the mathematical equivalent of a 4 deck shoe. Same HA. Not close. Identical.
It is not approaching infinity. It's 4 decks. Simple. I think so anyway lol.

But, just in case anyone here actually is a BS player, or even a sometimes-BS player but is too ashamed to admit it here lol, the CSM will have a lower HA for you compared to the same 4-deck game with a cut-card.

Which, you know, kind of flies in the face of the traditional disdain, seemingly borne perhaps sometimes out of some sense of "superiority", of AP's toward ploppies playing CSM's instead of shoes and thereby legitimizing them and, perhaps, reducing the other games counters think they love. But maybe, after all, while ploppies, they are perhaps smarter ploppies and should be given credit for preferring CSM's over shoes after all.

Yeah, I know, there's still the more hands per hour thing. It can often be favorably dealt with.

Tough getting respect as a ploppy for finding the best game available so he will have the best chance of winning money or losing less over some period of time. Oh, wait, is that an exclusive-AP sort of thing lol?

 

[Canceler]

a 4 deck CSM is the mathematical equivalent of a 4 deck shoe. Same HA. Not close. Identical.

the CSM will have a lower HA for you compared to the same 4-deck game with a cut-card.

You know you gave me whiplash with that! :laugh:

 

[Kasi]

You know you gave me whiplash with that! :laugh:

Well i went back through this whole thread thinking maybe I offended you somewhere somehow but I didn't see anything lol.

So I'm not exactly sure what you meant but, what with the smiley-face and all, apparently you liked being whipped lol.

If so, I completely understand. As I used to often tell this absolutely dead-drop beautiful blonde with a national ranking and a backhand passing shot down the line like you wouldn't believe, this is tennis btw, and she would just kick my ass, and I actually was pretty good, lol,

"Beat me again Baby."

She'd oblige and I confess I loved it every time.

 

[Canceler]

Oops, sorry...

Kasi -

All I meant was that you carefully and precisely made the point that the 4D shoe and the 4D CSM were the same, and then in the next breath said they were different.

After thinking about it some more, maybe I see your point, though. The two are the same while they're just sitting there on the table. When you actually start to play, however, the cut card effect comes into play with the shoe, but not the CSM. That's my wild guess as to your meaning, anyway.

Whiplash is the neck injury you get when your head changes direction too fast.

 

[Kasi]

All I meant was that you carefully and precisely made the point that the 4D shoe and the 4D CSM were the same, and then in the next breath said they were different.

Got ya lol. Since I've made the same point a few times in the past, by now, your neck should really be hurting lol.

And I like the analogy. Never thought of it that way. But I guess that pretty much sums it up lol.

Like ihate17 said, it's a small effect and I wouldn't really worry about it much from a practical point of view. Small but real.

Basically, I think, it means the dealer deals an extra hand every once in a while, compared to the average number of hands he would normally deal, because alot of high cards have already come out in that situation so there fore the BS player is playing a worse hand than he normally would be if the normal number of hands had occurred before the cut card.

Since even I barely understood that, to get a better understanding of it, google it lol.

 

[zengrifter]

Where the hell is that bloody english bloke, David Pom? zg

 

[davidpom]

I'm here

Hi Zen, I'm here! I've been keeping a watchful eye on the developments in the thread - most enlightening. It seems we've reached some logical conclusion in the discussions - and also that a lot of good debate has been had on both sides. That's a good thing - it helps us all to play better.

For the record, despite my user name, I'm not english / british. I did live there for a few years though - but once they barred me from my revenue stream I chose to live elsewhere.

 

[BlackChipBlackJack]

For the record, despite my user name, I'm not english / british. I did live there for a few years though - but once they barred me from my revenue stream I chose to live elsewhere.

i thought you worked fulltime and just gambled part time... i sure as hell wouldnt move for losing a 12k a year job lol