Count down a deck... How fast

Pelerus

Well-Known Member
#21
shiznites said:
When it comes to counting down in pairs its alot more difficult for Zen and my time sucks thus far! (Of course, 100% accuracy)
Stick with it. When I switched from Hi-Lo to Zen in January of this year, the increased difficulty when counting 2+ cards at a time seemed striking. There are simply a lot more possible combinations of counts that can result (for 2 cards with Zen: -4, -3, -2, -1, 0, +1, +2, +3, +4; compared to Hi-Lo: -2, -1, 0, +1, +2).

Now, it is second nature and I have actually improved upon my Hi-Lo count-down times. The increased difficulty forced me to keep the count more like a speed reader rather than verbalizing it in my head, which more than compensated for any decrease in time that a level II count might otherwise entail.
 
#22
Accuracy

Who the hell deals THAT fast? I don't feel there is any reason to "speed-flip" cards to be able to plow through a deck in 30 seconds, other than to try to impress your friends or yourself. I believe accuracy is more important than anything else! Even the speediest of dealers can be easily kept up with without you having to be able to do that!

I did a card-counting demonstration for Flash once in which I counted down two decks, taking my time really and not worrying about speed. Toward the end, I flip over the last 10-15 cards after I tell you exactly what they are. I have done this little demonstration many times before for people and I spend at least an hour every day flipping through some cards and drilling. I take time into consideration only as an afterthought with the focus on ACCURACY.

In the demonstration I did for Flash, I probably took over 2 for sure and likely near 3 minutes to count down only two decks like it normally does, since I am in it for accuracy and not because I am running a sprinting race! This is fast enough to keep up with the fastest of dealers. Accuracy? Well, at the end of whatever number of decks I can tell you exactly how many 2-5's are left, how many 6-9's are left, how many 10's/faces are left, how many aces are left, how many of those 6-9's are 9's...

I can also blaze out the cards at lightning speed and do the 30 seconds or less per deck thing if I want but then I can go off by a card or two and I focus on precision, not fast and sloppy.
 
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#23
Tarzan said:
Who the hell deals THAT fast? I don't feel there is any reason to "speed-flip" cards to be able to plow through a deck in 30 seconds, other than to try to impress your friends or yourself. I believe accuracy is more important than anything else! Even the speediest of dealers can be easily kept up with without you having to be able to do that!

I did a card-counting demonstration for Flash once in which I counted down two decks, taking my time really and not worrying about speed. Toward the end, I flip over the last 10-15 cards after I tell you exactly what they are. I have done this little demonstration many times before for people and I spend at least an hour every day flipping through some cards and drilling. I take time into consideration only as an afterthought with the focus on ACCURACY.

In the demonstration I did for Flash, I probably took over 2 for sure and likely near 3 minutes to count down only two decks like it normally does, since I am in it for accuracy and not because I am running a sprinting race! This is fast enough to keep up with the fastest of dealers. Accuracy? Well, at the end of whatever number of decks I can tell you exactly how many 2-5's are left, how many 6-9's are left, how many 10's/faces are left, how many aces are left, how many of those 6-9's are 9's...

I can also blaze out the cards at lightning speed and do the 30 seconds or less per deck thing if I want but then I can go off by a card or two and I focus on precision, not fast and sloppy.
Well now you are talking about an extreme multi-parameter count, not what most of the folks here mean when they say "counting down a deck."

My opinion is if you want to practice counting, go to a casino, stand behind a table and count. Then sit down, play Basic Strategy, and count. Then add your index plays. Then a little bit of a spread, and so on. Having something to lose or gain, even if it's just a little bit, can improve your performance in everything be it learning or practicing.
 

ExhibitCAA

Well-Known Member
#24
Getting back to the original issue, I think a critical speed threshold/criterion is this: At a full table, both in a face-up shoe game and also in a face-down pitch game, can you accurately count everything when the dealer gets a Ten-up blackjack?
 

daddybo

Well-Known Member
#25
count in groups.

ExhibitCAA said:
Getting back to the original issue, I think a critical speed threshold/criterion is this: At a full table, both in a face-up shoe game and also in a face-down pitch game, can you accurately count everything when the dealer gets a Ten-up blackjack?
That would be the situation offering the least amount of time to work the cards. The "best" way is to practice counting groups of cards... you should be able to see a group of three to five cards and automatically know the correct + or - for the count. To me, the face down pitch game is the hardest, because players are throwing their cards down as soon as the dealer flips the Ace over and the dealer is usually scooping them right up...(this has probably been said earlier... but just in case, I threw it in.) :)
 
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#26
I just got the dvd on speed counting by Frank Scoblete. I was using it the wrong way, and so I know how it works. You add up small cards 2-6 after all hands are played, and subtract the number of playings.When the player reaches 31 the player has the edge over the casino.Under 31,the casino the edge. If I am playing alone with the dealer, and I have 12 and the dealer has 17, my hand is not finish, and so I must take a hit. The dealer give me a card, and I get 5, I have 17, a push with the dealer. You add the two small card and subtract two, me and the dealer. 27+2=29-2=27.If there are no small cards, you still must subtract the number of players at the table.If I have 18 and the dealer has 17, I must subtract 2 from 27,which is 25, I must leave the blackjack table when the count is that low.

At 31 the player puts up one unit
At 32 " " four units
At 38 take ins

Harry:)
 
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Dopple

Well-Known Member
#27
I can keep up with 99% of the dealers either head up or on a full table and that is all that you need. You learn to just find pairs that negate each other. In my UAPC system if I see a ten, a five cancels it or 2 and 1 value will. 2s and 9s cancel each other as well as 8s and 9s. It gets pretty simple with time.
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#28
Harry,

If you are here to learn I strongly advise you to keep the profanity out of your posts.

"Scoblete" and "Loveman" are examples of words certain to offend some of us.
 

RJT

Well-Known Member
#29
A couple of years ago using hi/lo i could count a deck accurately every time at around 12s, but by that stage i realised that the drill was meaningless and had become more about how fast i could move my hands than how fast i could count. It's a useful drill when you're just starting out, but once you've got your system down cold, it's redundant.

RJT.
 

StandardDeviant

Well-Known Member
#30
I've been playing with the single deck count down and I find that I have trouble below about 30s. What seems to be happening is I'm mentally saying the count to silently to myself and the next card appears faster than I can say mentally say the words.

I think this is something like what happens when we learn a foreign language. At first we have to think about every word that is spoken, but eventually the language becomes second nature, and we just "know" what to say.

I am wondering if the single deck count down drill has some value in breaking through the think vs. know barrier in counting. :confused:

I agree with the other posts that the drill is somewhat meaningless otherwise.
 

Blue Efficacy

Well-Known Member
#31
Counting down a deck as quick as possible is beneficial to beginner players only.

It's more about mentally associating the card value with its count value than anything else, once you can do that without thinking about it, that's all you really need.

It should not take most players too much practice before they are able to count fast enough for when the dealer scoops up after a back door blackjack.

Actually, some dealers are very fast to scoop up a busted hand. Fortunately you at least know in most scenarios the player at first base wasn't busted by a small card.
 

shiznites

Well-Known Member
#32
FLASH1296 said:
"Scoblete" and "Loveman" are examples of words certain to offend some of us.
Just curious why you're against Scoblete (as I know nothing about him or his teachings)? My stepfather just got into dice control and bought his book Golden Touch. Is Schoblete not a reliable source?
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#33
Sclobete, for the most part, offers bad advice.
The advice is often atrocious.
His card counting advice is among the worst that one can find.
 

StandardDeviant

Well-Known Member
#34
Knowing vs. Counting

Blue Efficacy said:
It's more about mentally associating the card value with its count value than anything else, once you can do that without thinking about it, that's all you really need.
Agreed, it's association.

Does one reach a proficiency level where the count is just known and not actually counted? Counting a full table at one glance would be close to this, I guess.

It's sort of like reading this sentence. You're not thinking about the meaning of each word. You just get what the sentence says without thinking about each word.
 

Deathclutch

Well-Known Member
#35
shiznites said:
Just curious why you're against Scoblete (as I know nothing about him or his teachings)? My stepfather just got into dice control and bought his book Golden Touch. Is Schoblete not a reliable source?
Tell him to read the Mad Professor's crapshooting bible if he wants to get into DI. It's the most informative one I've read.
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#36
Craps

The Mad Professor's Crapshooting Bible is the only book on Craps endorsed by Stanford Wong.

This is the cheapest possible price for it:

http://product.half.ebay.com/_W0QQprZ53742913QQcpidZ1375477993

Stanford Wong's book "Wong on Dice" is also quite worthwhile.

I read "Get the Edge at Craps"
by Sharpshooter. That was excellent..
I just found this on half.com for $1.40:

http://product.half.ebay.com/Get-the-Edge-at-Craps_W0QQtgZinfoQQprZ2388203


The Mad Professor's Crapshooting Bible
By The Mad Professor.

"I make my living strictly by playing craps. If I had to rely on luck to overcome this negative-expectancy game, I'd be a pauper living under an overpass. Instead, I rely on my ability to "derandomize" the game every time that I pick up the dice.

I have been playing the game this way since 1990. My worst year since turning professional still managed to produce a net profit of $100,000. Recent years have proven to be even more lucrative as I've developed my dice-influencing abilities well beyond what they were when I first started out.

The Mad Professor's Crapshooting Bible shows you the step-by-step process of how to turn the money-losing, negative-expectation game of craps into a moneymaking, positive-expectation advantage-play situation nearly every time you pick up the dice.

Concept Is Easy; Execution Isn't
I started playing craps in the late 70's. From '78 to '81 I lost a ton of money. I finally began to play smarter in the summer of '81 when I started pursuing dice setting as a way of turning the game in my favor. I can't tell you how much I experimented with different grips, various types of tosses and all sorts of betting methods as I attempted to tailor my wagers to the outcomes I was getting.

It wasn't until the summer of '89, about 11 years after I started playing, and almost eight years to the day after I started fooling around with dice setting, when the whole precision-shooting equation came together. Back then, I could walk into any given casino with the knowledge that there was an excellent chance that I'd be walking out with a decent profit. In those early days of 1990 and '91 it was difficult to keep my ego in check, and I ended up blowing a ton of hard-earned profit because of it.

Understanding the concept of dice influencing is easy to understand; however, executing a near-flawless throw, time after time, and betting that advantage profitably is where difficulty comes into play.

The Mad Professor's Crapshooting Bible shows you not only how to build consistently repeatable and adaptable dice-influencing skills that can be used on nearly every layout that you will encounter, but also exactly how to maximize your profit and generate steady earnings without putting your money at needless risk or peril.

Do Try This at Home
You know those warning you hear from experts on television who tell you, "Don't try this at home!"? Well with dice-influencing, most of your "derandomizing" skills can and should be developed at home before you consider taking your skills to a casino.

With random rollers you never know when a great hand is going to happen. With precision shooting you still don't know when a great hand will happen, but great hands happen more often.

I am going to show you how to build a strong foundational skill-set that can elevate craps from being merely an entertaining but money-losing diversion into one that produces an exploitable edge over the casino.

The Pied Piper of the Pass Line
A lot of people who see me shoot say that it looks so easy. When you are having a hot hand at a crap table, everyone wants to be your friend. I enjoy the camaraderie as much as everyone else; but as soon as I finish shooting, you'll likely see me stepping away to shoot at another table or even heading off to a different casino. I love the company of others, but I also like to maximize my profit. That often means seeking green felt pastures on which I can shoot again, instead of having to wait for the dice to cycle back around to my spot at the current table.

Oftentimes when I am leaving, several players ask where I'm going to be playing next so that they can follow me. On some occasions I feel like the Pied Piper of the pass line. There have been times when the entire population of a table has followed me to another casino.

A typical example happened at New York-New York in Las Vegas, where the dealers, who were making huge tokes, organized it so that everyone else passed the dice, meaning they would immediately come back to me following my seven-out. After we did that for six more decent-length hands in a row, the pit boss came over and said, "That's enough! Everyone else take a turn or I'll shut the table down. You can't trade on his good luck all day long!" I beat a hasty retreat to the Monte Carlo next door, and eight of those players, all strangers to me, followed me there.

Many times four or five people who are vacationing together will ask if they can buy my companion and me dinner in hopes that they'll get in on another hot hand later in the evening. Occasionally I will oblige, but most times I just thank them for their flattering and generous offer.

Invariably, savvy and observant players are attracted to the predictability that precision shooting brings to what is otherwise an unpredictable game. Dice influencing takes varying degrees of random unpredictability out of the game, and replaces it with skill-based consistency and revenue-generating utility.

Questions from Cyberspace
Q: How many days and/or hours each week do you play?

A: It averages out to four or five days a week. In total, my average weekly playing time is 20 to 30 hours.

Q: I read somewhere that you said, "If you are relying on the random nature of the dice and on luck, then you are in the wrong place."

A: The only ways that I know how to win at craps are to become a precision shooter, or to seek out those that are and profit from their rolls. Without "derandomizing" the dice, you are at the whim of Lady Luck, and at times she can be a bitch.

Q: Do you ever have bad sessions?

A: Yes, I sometimes have terrible sessions. If I haven't found my groove, I will tell my companions to hold off on their betting during the early stages of my next hand. If I settle into a rhythm, or I hit and land the dice the way that I want, then I'll signal to them to get into the action.

Money Attracts...Everything!
Money attracts all sorts of things and characters. It's a powerful force that makes people do strange and sometimes wonderful things. Money can also make people act foolish. This point was reinforced a little while ago, when I was playing in Reno. I was producing some consistent hands that were generating decent profit on every turn. The box man was a chap I have known for several years. Every time it was my turn to shoot, he would announce, "this is your chance to bet on a sure thing, folks! This shooter is going to have another monster hand! Get your bets in now, or don't cry that I didn't warn you ahead of time."

Each time his spiel would be somewhat different, but the effect was the same. There would be a betting frenzy. Many people would plead for me to tell them what to bet on. High rollers were betting huge! Former low rollers were digging into their pockets to grab bigger wads of money in a feverish attempt to lay down more wagering ammunition. Even people who were walking past the table would hear the fervor and excitement, then stop and try to squeeze into any available space.

When the table was filled, some of the outer ring of would-be players were making side deals with patrons already at the table, so that their bets could get into delirious action too. It was a bit unnerving, not because of the expectation that the box man was creating, nor in the performance anxiety that most shooters would get from such a buildup. Rather it was my concern that a pit manager would get wind of my consistency and bring heat to bear.

In most cases where I feel that there could be heat, I do a quick shoot and scoot attack. I don't need people singing my praises to feed my ego. I certainly don't go around talking about my skills in a casino. I am concerned lest casinos curtail or ban dice setting. Several casinos do it now, although it is inconsistently policed.

The casinos have big and tasty pots of honey. They don't seem to mind if one or two bears come around once in a while, but if huge raiding parties show up, the casinos will take countermeasures to protect their pots. Some of the smaller houses have low loss tolerances, and therefore, hitting them for a big win is not in the best interests of you or the dice setting community in general.

So, when a precision shooter comes along, whoop and holler all you want about winning, but the silent wink of shared knowledge should be enough to feed even the weakest of egos in the advantage-play community."
 

FLASH1296

Well-Known Member
#37
Reading a book or two on craps will NOT make you a red cent at the craps tables.

You need to purchase [or build] a "dice rig" to simulate a Craps Table.
You need to spend 1 or 2 or more hours daily practicing your throw.

This is a matter of athletics, not brain work.
It is like throwing darts or shooting pool.

It takes excellent eye-hand coordination.
 
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shiznites

Well-Known Member
#38
FLASH1296 said:
Reading as book or two on craps will NOT make you a red cent at the craps tables.

You need to purchase [or build] a "dice rig" to simulate a Craps Table.
You need to spend 1 or 2 or more hours daily practicing your throw.

This is a matter of athletics, not brain work.
It is like throwing darts or shooting pool.

It takes excellent eye-hand coordination.
He started researching/making blueprints for a rig last week. Today he got the pyramid rubber in the mail. He loves craps (STRICTLY as a hobby) and believes that he has great hand-eye coordination (I gotta see it to believe it). He's also aware of the tedious practice involved and all that good stuff.

I know he also got Wong on Dice.. but I'll inform him to watch out for the Schlobet =]
 
#40
FLASH1296 said:
Reading a book or two on craps will NOT make you a red cent at the craps tables.

You need to purchase [or build] a "dice rig" to simulate a Craps Table.
You need to spend 1 or 2 or more hours daily practicing your throw.

This is a matter of athletics, not brain work.
It is like throwing darts or shooting pool.

It takes excellent eye-hand coordination.
I wrote on rec. gambling craps on March, 1996 "Yes , the dice can be thrown against the back wall and be controlled like a pro golfer who get's a backspin from a wedge. This takes a lot of practice, but it can be done." http://groups.google.com/group/rec....2/e3f367762a527fa5?hl=en&q=jstat+dice+control While working at a craps table training dealers at Fitzgerald's in Reno in 1978, I controlled the dice to roll "yo 11" more than normal while teaching. Set the dice on ace-duece and threw without rotation on the dice when they hit the layout before bouncing off the backboard. The dice would flip over to eleven more often than the 15-1 payout after practicing thousands of tosses. Tried this at other casinos and was given heat because the height of the throw was not over six feet.
 
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